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Saint Martin is not French speaking. Both the French and the Dutch side of the island speak English (as to the nearby Dutch islands like Saba and Sint Eustatius. Apparently the French hate discovering when they travel to Saint Martin (which has one of the biggest airports in the Caribbean) that the locals - citizens of their own country! - don't speak French very well.
Most people on Dominica do still speak Creole among themselves. It's a point of pride for the island that it's kept more French influence than the other former British islands. That said, an area in the north of the island around Portsmouth has an English Creole and a totally different accent. IIRC, the locals there were imported from the British from Saint Kitts or another of the smaller islands.
Can you ****ing read? I mentioned French Creole in the comment post so what the heck are you talking about. And it is very French anyway in customs and language and linguistic influence.
Each person in French and French creole speaking areas actually do have lots in common with French mainlanders. You'd be surprised how language and culture can unite people rather than skin color etc.
Culture and linguistic culture is very important and can unite people across so called racial lines.
Except that Antilleans aren't very united with the Metropoles, either in France, where they often treated as immigrants, and definitely NOT seen as REAL French. Their angst being of course that they are French by nationality. When the French complain that their football team is too black they aren't just referring to the West and North Africans.
Or in the Caribbean where the metropoles tend to live in their own communities separate from the locals. I went to Guadeloupe and it was quite obvious.
Don't know if you remember not that long ago there were riots in both Martinique and Guadeloupe. The issue being that they felt as if they were being treated as foreigners in their own societies. That only ended when Sarkozy threatened a referendum on them where they would have to decide whether they were going to remain part of France, or go their separate ways. Despite the issues that they have with France, they know it is way too late for them to consider independence as they have become way too dependent on French largesse.
Indeed when I was in Guadeloupe there were lively debates about being French, or Antillean. The conclusion was that the French Antilles are like Puerto Rico. Along for the ride with a richer society, but having an identity very distinct from it.
So these islands are French Creole. A mix of French and African, with some East Indian and Carib Indian influences. Just as how speaking English and having some British influences doesn't make Canadians British the same applies to Antilleans and being French.
There is a definite Creole identity which is distinct from being a French Metropole.
I wouldn't even get into St Martin, where the French metropoles are colonial overlords literally squeezing the locals off their own island.
Saint Martin is not French speaking. Both the French and the Dutch side of the island speak English (as to the nearby Dutch islands like Saba and Sint Eustatius. Apparently the French hate discovering when they travel to Saint Martin (which has one of the biggest airports in the Caribbean) that the locals - citizens of their own country! - don't speak French very well.
Most people on Dominica do still speak Creole among themselves. It's a point of pride for the island that it's kept more French influence than the other former British islands. That said, an area in the north of the island around Portsmouth has an English Creole and a totally different accent. IIRC, the locals there were imported from the British from Saint Kitts or another of the smaller islands.
The Leeward Islanders arrived in Dominica on their own. In fact the British would not have encouraged them, as they viewed these people as escaping their duties as cane cutters in the Leeward Islands.Reading some people one would think that Caribbean people don't do anything, unless its on the orders of some colonialist.
After slavery ended there were severe land shortages on those islands as the planters controlled all the land. So people from Antigua, Montserrat, and to a lesser extent St Kitts, populated the northern part of Dominica, where they were able to establish themselves as peasant farmers, thereby escaping the trap of being cane cutters beholden to the planter class.
And the same phenomenon occurred in the other Windward islands, which were also under populated. Barbadians were the dominant settlers, and moved for the same reasons. This is why there are many Anglo/Celtic last names on creole St Lucia and Grenada. Bajans and Leeward islanders also moved to St Vincent.
St Martin is a sad story. English speaking and many locals don't speak French very well. The French neglected that part of the island until about 20 years ago, so it had to become economically integrated with the more prosperous Dutch side.
The French suddenly discovered St Martin and swarms of metropoles arrived. They live in communities completely separate from the locals. Instead of acknowledging that the island is English speaking they have imposed French language only education and gov't, putting the locals at a disadvantage. Many St Martin kids perform poorly in school because they arrive speaking English, and the local English creole, which is basically VI dialect. There is 100% immersion into French in school. The attitude being that St Martin is France, so too bad.
If a spot cannot be manned by a metropole they bring in some one from Guadeloupe. So basically the higher govt slots are metropoles, the middle are Guadeloupean, and many of the lower slots are now going to Haitians, who of course know French.
The locals have little input into local government, because they aren't enough of them. They feel squeezed between the Haitians at the lower end and the metropoles (and to a lesser degree Guadeloupeans) on the higher end.
All of this was told to me by several St Martin taxi drivers who have reported that the language discrimination against them is so intense that many have to work on the Dutch side. Gradually the locals have had to improve their French in order to survive, but are highly resentful of what they consider to be aliens (Haitians, French metropoles, and French Antilleans) who have virtually pushed them out of their own island.
Indeed because of this Anguilla, a British Overseas Territory, forces British citizens from the UK to get work permits, even though they enjoy automatic entry into the UK. They gaze across the channel which separates them from St Martin and they don't like what they see.
And its not as if English isn't vitally important, given that the USA is the largest source of tourists.
Of course the Dutch side is administered by locals and one hardly sees any Dutch there. It feels like a more laid back version of St Thomas. Definitely nothing like Curacao.
You'd be surprised. Even still today many of those islands still speak French based Creoles and patois and French based dialects. In addition there has always been island hopping and migrations between the islands with many having various anchorages and points and places of origins.
Even today majority of these populations in many areas and islands in the Caribbean are still historically rooted in and continue to speak French based dialect languages and partake in such cultures.
Of the former French islands only Dominica and St Lucia are really creole speaking. Grenada and Trinidad had a history of it but you would have to go into deep rural areas, or talk to really old people to find any fluency.
Having said that these two islands lack the basilectal English creole dialects of countries like Guyana, the Leeward Islands, St Vincent, Jamaica, or Belize, because their basilectal is the now almost defunct French creole. Their English vernacular does show strong French creole influences in its grammar, and accent. Indeed many Grenadians sound like St Lucians.
I think its evident why Trinidad lost its French creole, as too many new people arrived after it became a British colony. I have often wondered what happened to Grenada. Some theorize that primary school education was more available in Grenada then in St Lucia and Dominica in the pre WW II, maybe because it isn't as rugged. Of course the goal of those schools was to train loyal subjects of the British Empire so French creole was discouraged.
The Leeward Islanders arrived in Dominica on their own. In fact the British would not have encouraged them, as they viewed these people as escaping their duties as cane cutters in the Leeward Islands.Reading some people one would think that Caribbean people don't do anything, unless its on the orders of some colonialist.
After slavery ended there were severe land shortages on those islands as the planters controlled all the land. So people from Antigua, Montserrat, and to a lesser extent St Kitts, populated the northern part of Dominica, where they were able to establish themselves as peasant farmers, thereby escaping the trap of being cane cutters beholden to the planter class.
And the same phenomenon occurred in the other Windward islands, which were also under populated. Barbadians were the dominant settlers, and moved for the same reasons. This is why there are many Anglo/Celtic last names on creole St Lucia and Grenada. Bajans and Leeward islanders also moved to St Vincent.
St Martin is a sad story. English speaking and many locals don't speak French very well. The French neglected that part of the island until about 20 years ago, so it had to become economically integrated with the more prosperous Dutch side.
The French suddenly discovered St Martin and swarms of metropoles arrived. They live in communities completely separate from the locals. Instead of acknowledging that the island is English speaking they have imposed French language only education and gov't, putting the locals at a disadvantage. Many St Martin kids perform poorly in school because they arrive speaking English, and the local English creole, which is basically VI dialect. There is 100% immersion into French in school. The attitude being that St Martin is France, so too bad.
If a spot cannot be manned by a metropole they bring in some one from Guadeloupe. So basically the higher govt slots are metropoles, the middle are Guadeloupean, and many of the lower slots are now going to Haitians, who of course know French.
The locals have little input into local government, because they aren't enough of them. They feel squeezed between the Haitians at the lower end and the metropoles (and to a lesser degree Guadeloupeans) on the higher end.
All of this was told to me by several St Martin taxi drivers who have reported that the language discrimination against them is so intense that many have to work on the Dutch side. Gradually the locals have had to improve their French in order to survive, but are highly resentful of what they consider to be aliens (Haitians, French metropoles, and French Antilleans) who have virtually pushed them out of their own island.
Indeed because of this Anguilla, a British Overseas Territory, forces British citizens from the UK to get work permits, even though they enjoy automatic entry into the UK. They gaze across the channel which separates them from St Martin and they don't like what they see.
And its not as if English isn't vitally important, given that the USA is the largest source of tourists.
Of course the Dutch side is administered by locals and one hardly sees any Dutch there. It feels like a more laid back version of St Thomas. Definitely nothing like Curacao.
The issue is a bit more complex than those cab drivers explained to you. One of the biggest reasons why they don't speak French is because most people in St Martin are immigrants or the immediate descendants of immigrants, pure and simple, and they SHOULD learn the language of the country that they immigrated to. Most people who settled in St Martin arrived there from the other adjacent leeward islands (St Kitts, Anguilla, Antigua and Dominica) as well as many more recent immigrants from the Dominican Republic and Haiti, and simply refused to learn the local language (either french or dutch) because they quickly outnumbered the locals by a huge margin. So if they get pushed out of the job market that's their problem, it's no different from Hispanics or Asians who come to the United States and expect to not to have to learn English.
Another issue is the fact that inhabitants on the French side get WAY more subsidies from the government than the Dutch side. The Dutch side has more jobs and more businesses, but citizens who live on the French side get housing allowances, childcare allowances, better healthcare and better education as a whole. Why would you expect to get all those benefits if you don't have made no effort to assimilate into that nation's society? Their situation is not analogous to that of Guadeloupe, they decided to not become French and now they're reaping the costs of that decision.
It's true that metropoles are squeezing locals off of that side of the island, but that has little to do with language as the same thing is happening in Anguilla, Tortola, St Johns and even now in St Kitts and Antigua. Caribbean property is lucrative and the leeward islands are all small.
The issue is a bit more complex than those cab drivers explained to you. One of the biggest reasons why they don't speak French is because most people in St Martin are immigrants or the immediate descendants of immigrants, pure and simple, and they SHOULD learn the language of the country that they immigrated to. Most people who settled in St Martin arrived there from the other adjacent leeward islands (St Kitts, Anguilla, Antigua and Dominica) as well as many more recent immigrants from the Dominican Republic and Haiti, and simply refused to learn the local language (either french or dutch) because they quickly outnumbered the locals by a huge margin. So if they get pushed out of the job market that's their problem, it's no different from Hispanics or Asians who come to the United States and expect to not to have to learn English.
Another issue is the fact that inhabitants on the French side get WAY more subsidies from the government than the Dutch side. The Dutch side has more jobs and more businesses, but citizens who live on the French side get housing allowances, childcare allowances, better healthcare and better education as a whole. Why would you expect to get all those benefits if you don't have made no effort to assimilate into that nation's society? Their situation is not analogous to that of Guadeloupe, they decided to not become French and now they're reaping the costs of that decision.
It's true that metropoles are squeezing locals off of that side of the island, but that has little to do with language as the same thing is happening in Anguilla, Tortola, St Johns and even now in St Kitts and Antigua. Caribbean property is lucrative and the leeward islands are all small.
This is about St Maarten/Martin creole English. We are talking about the SAME people on either side of the border. This is INDIGEMOUS. Not some immigrants who refuse to learn the language of the majority.
I don't have a high opinion of French colonialism in the Caribbean (because that is what it is), but that's another topic. Suffice to say that GIVING people fish and not HELPING them to fish doesn't breed an independent and self confident people, and the riots of the French Antilles a few years ago is testimony to that.
Few in St Maarten use Dutch. All the local papers are in English so I assume that the official language is English and not Dutch, even in day to day government. I suspect that Dutch is only used at the level where there is interface with the Netherlands, or if one must travel there. So not being able to speak Dutch isn't a liability. This part of the island is more like St Thomas than it is Curacao. Because I didn't see many official signs in Dutch. Nor did I see the Euro in use. The ATMs even dispensed US dollars.
I can tell you that each side has a different feel to it. The Dutch side the locals feel that it is THEIR country and that they run it. With all the challenges that these small tourist dependent islands have. Their papers have the same banter about politics as one can see in the English speaking Caribbean. One doesn't get the impression that they see themselves as anything other than people who are part of the Anglophone Caribbean, even of it lacks a British colonial heritage, indeed much as one sees in the USVI. Many have told me that Curacao is an alien land.
On the French side there is a definite COLONIAL feel with the locals feeling crowded out of their own island, much as Amerindians probably feel throughout the Americas. Or the way that some argue that Cubans have pushed aside non Spanish speakers in Miami. They feel totally excluded from every aspect of life, and are definitely subordinated to the Metropoles. Even the low level jobs seem off limits to them.
The taxi drivers on the French side were ALL St Martin people who were BORN there. And they are the descendants of people born there. Had they been Leeward islanders they would have a Leeward Island accent. They don't. They all spoke English with the same accent as they have on the Dutch side, and indeed in St Thomas and Tortola. These aren't recent immigrants. And to my knowledge there has been no significant migration from the VI either.
Indeed it is likely that Virgin Islands English creole arose from the same base as St Maarten English creole. That is the slaves spoke a Dutch based creole, and then switched to English. St Thomas because they became part of the USA. St Maarten/Martin because all the neighboring islands spoke English, so Dutch/French ceased to be of any use.
So English is INDIGENOUS to this island. It is Dutch and French which are foreign. On the Dutch side it doesn't matter as its rarely used. On the French side its a colonial imposition.
The squeezing of the locals is that they cant even find work on the French side because of the huge numbers of metropoles working there in bars, restaurants, etc. And they don't find work in govt, because of language discrimination as no doubt they speak French as a second language. So they have to go to the Dutch side. And what is quite obvious is the degree to which the Metropoles segregate themselves from the locals. I stayed in Orient Beach and after hours I was one of the few black people around, and most were Metropoles doing humble jobs, not the villa owner set.
The island of St Maarten/Martin was neglected after the plantation system collapsed, and in fact almost emptied out, with islanders heading off to Curacao/Aruba and to cut cane in the Dominican Republic. Many off to the USA as well. Their economy was based on fishing and gathering salt (Dutch side), and remittances from those who had emigrated. With English speaking islands around them English became the local language as well. French was of no use to them as the only nearby French island, St Barths lived in a subsistence world to itself. Guadeloupe which administered St Martin, was irrelevant.
That began to change on the Dutch side on the late 50s, and on the French side at some point in the 80s.
Indeed one of the taxi drivers, who is in her 50s, described the 60s as the "period of darkness" on the French side, because they DID NOT HAVE electricity, or jobs either. She had to work on the Dutch side.
So at some point along come the metropoles. With the usual French attitude they declare that this is France so no concessions to the local culture or identity, as France is defined by the Gallic culture. There will be no recognition of the fact that French virtually died out after the islands plantation economy collapsed in the 19th century, and so that part of the island will have to be seen as being bilingual.
And I know that this happened within the last generation as the middle aged population are all literate, so clearly went to school, at least to the primary level, and were obvious taught in English. But now their kids have to deal with all instruction being exclusively in French. This being without acknowledgment of the fact that this is a tourist island and the largest source of visitors are from the USA. Given that they speak St Martin English creole at home this leads to issues, as quite a few arrive not knowing enough French to function in a 100% French instruction environment. On the Dutch side instruction s on BOTH languages.
The locals on the Dutch side are clearly better off. And not just because this is the more prosperous side either.
Last edited by caribny; 01-11-2014 at 04:45 PM..
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