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Yes , Murty's Infosys is valued in billions today interesting thing is he started the company after borrowing 10,000 rupees (250 $) from his wife.
You are right in saying that India needs more entrepreneurs.Most of the population is satisfied with mediocre jobs with mediocre salary , they dont mind living with their parents through out their life and getting an arranged marriage.
With more risk takers , indigenous capital formation can lead to less dependency on foreign investments.
This current generation is more into entrepreneurship and things do look bright
That has to do with the priorities f the people. In general, Indian culture does not promote materialism, although this is fast changung through western influence. Indians prefer to keep their traditions. THey respect thir parents and value family systems. So they prefer arranged marraiges which are more stable, given that one gets the opinion of the elders and communities and makes a mature choice rather than one based on momentary attraction. If there is a problem the families support the couple. If the husband or wife acts dificult the in-laws can put pressure to get them to behave responsibly and there is accountability at various levels. Arranged marariges work quite well to give stable long-lasting and happy marraiges. My parents just completes 40 years as an arranged marriage and I am blessed to see their deep commitment, strength and love as a couple. I am sure Americans have such examples in their homes too. However, they judge ararnged marriages without usually understanding how mature it is. When two people marry, the failies and communites unit and provide a cushy support netwrok for a child born into it.
First thing I would state is that Indians in India and in the diaspora total 1.3 billion souls. So up front, I can make no comment about such a massive and incredibly diverse set of people.
However, I can comment on those I have interacted with.
1. China. Many have a chip on the shoulder with regards to a perceived battle with China. While there may be roots to this going back to the early 1960s when a border skirmish was fought, there is really no need for it as any such competition is only in the mind.
2. The US. Indians seem to have a deep love-hate relationship with the US. I guess the alliance with Pakistan is partly to blame. It is more than schadenfreude or the usual anti-hegemonic voices of weaker nations. I think it goes much deeper. European friends mention Greece in the same light--almost an obliviousness to the fact that any greatness as far as importance to the world community is well in the past or far in the future. Apparently not easy to swallow. Those embittered feelings are hard to understand today given the warming of US-Indian relationships and the resounding successes of the Indian-American community.
3. The UK. I know less about it, but the two centuries of colonization, stripping of natural resources and the utter botching of the Partition, are deep in the Indian DNA. It seems to be love-hate but only deeper than it is for the US. As it appears to be case with the US, even the most anti-UK Indian would be hard pressed to turn down a scholarship to Oxbridge or a top position on Wall Street, yet feel free to bash the ULK with impunity. Curious.
4. India Herself. What I find very interesting goes back to the Greek parallel. Many young Indians are obsessed with national greatness. Nothing seems more thrilling to climb some ranking regardless of its usefulness or prestige. The Indians I know appear obsessed with rankings, especially if India is seen to leapfrog China, the US or UK. Adding to this is the interminable boasting both of the past and of the idea that India will be the next superpower. It is such a commonplace attitude, it makes me wonder of its genesis.
5. 1-4 aside, I find Indians interesting and interested in being interesting. I like that. Indians can be curious and when they can fight off their tendency to boast, can be quite creative and innovative thinkers. I those, too.
6. Indians can be very sensitive about criticism but feel they can take potshots at the US (more than the UK) with impunity. It is as if the Huffington Post was built by Indians!
7. Hard Work. I have not found they have near the same work ethos as East Asians. They like to play and far more obsessed with celebrity and material culture than most East Asians. Some are smart and some are not, but the ones that are not terribly smart would never accept such an assessment. This is a good trait, but one that can be maddening for those on the receiving end.
8. Personality. I do not know a single Indian I would deem "boring." They want to be in the mix. Many are funny and very engaged in conversation. They have a gift for gab and can talk for 72 hours straight.
9. Deep Inferiority Complex. IMHO, it is only when one observes people who clearly do not have an inferiority complex that one can notice its existence in others. Indians ought to be proud of their culture, their successes, their charms, etc. But instead, Indians can be incredibly defense and sensitive to any criticism against India or Indians, even if that criticism was voiced for reasons other than race or culture and not directed at Indians per se.
10. Deeper Cultural Aspects. Treatment of Women, religious warfare, pollution, and #9 above mean that one must be extra prepared or on guard when engaging in a deeper conversation on India with Indians. Also, many practices we see on TV/interact are horrifying to most Americans and not understood. But instead of helping cross that information gap, many Indians will switch the target to America's problems and issues--a kind more morally, self-righteous indignation. Too bad really, since there is I think great room for shared dialogue that can bridge gaps.
Again, these comments are limited to those I know or whom I have worked with --perhaps 1,000-2,000 or so.
Finally, I like their joie de vivre.
The observations of one person.
S.
Wow..I think I can say this is one of the more accurate articles about Indians than many others I have encontered. I do agree with some of them although my brethen may not. I certainly can agree with one's idignition over the common discussions and questions posed by my Amercan brethren because they see somethng on TV. I used to me much more cool about the questions But after a couple of eyars in the west, I ha ve become very sensitive to questions or comments about INdia or culture and prefer to change the topic or walk away. THis is because people keep on saying things beased on what they saw on biased documentaries and refse to believ when we try to offer a difefent perspective. For instance, I found that most Americans don't seem ti understand or may I say, evenw ant to understand or respect arranged marriages. THey usually ask that questions with loaded judegement. I have yet to find someone who would actually hear/see the positive side of ararnged marriages. So the next time someone comes up, I wonder how come they don't see how flawed and broken their marraige and family ssytems are?
POint 6., I have found the contrary. Americans and (other westerenrs) would come up and ask me blatantly about a social evilor what theyr think is a problem in INdia but if I questions one thing at their end, they get defesive and angry and indignant. It is like 'western=civilized=superior''. THey can't see, to understand that that kind of attitude is very offe sive to us. I feel abused that someone would just come up and take shots at my culture for no good reason. So we feel criticised. I would not go up to an American or white person and ask so why do you guys illtreat the blacks?? or how many one-night stands did you have? do your kids know their fathers? how come women like to msoke and drink and theink they are liberated? makes no sense to me?
BUt Americans do that to me all the time. Even yesterday, I was minding my own business at a gym and an older white woman came up and started talking things in an offnsive way. Im sure she didn't mean offense. But se suggested how unsafe India is. I don't think she has been to India even. It is a negative comment and out of the blue!! I felt like telling her taht with the agresisve driving, the gun-obsession and brutal violence, drug addiction and drunken driving in this country I feel a lot more unsafe. But chose not share my honest opinion coz it might offend her. So that might explain a but of why INdians over time tend to stop interacting with their American peers. THey come up and ask personal (and judegmnetal) questions such as 'did you have an arranged marrige?' Honestly I don't think any Indian comes up toan American woman and asks did you sleep with lots of men before you married? Even if it is the lfetyle for America woman, such a question would come across as nosy, potentially judgemnetal and offensive.
So that is how it comes across to us.
Finally, the inferiroty complex you mentioned is partly due to the 200 years of British rule. The BRitish called Inians dogs and demeaned our nationa nd culture. Over time, like an abuse-survivor our self-steem got eroded some. Add to that, people and media calling out our negatives constantly, shaming us by calling us 'third world' (which is a very offensive and also mostly sterotyping kind of word' and the domination of western cultures with its aggresisve and flamboyant show of power and materialism triggers some of the inferiority feelings one encounters.
Indians are also a polite-to-the fault kind of people and Extremely emotional. I would never tell my colleague her food stinks (it does especillay if it is some kind of neat) or that I dislike BOjangles and all the fried chike places and they sell so bad to me I want to puke). I only said that on this forum. But Aericans call us stinky say our curry stinks and talk negatively about our habits. Well, news to them, we have our perceptions of their habits but don't say it. We are used to diversity. I feel that in the western countries, one religion and one language and one type pf culture is predominant. So they tire us with shock over our differences. It gets hurtful offensive and annoying after a point.
Also a lot of western perceptions of women and religious warfare is often biased and incorrect. Funnily a westerner wo starts a conversation is already completely convinced that they know all about how women are treated and offend us by forcing negative sterotypes of us. Fact? women NEVER had to fight for voting rights. The faminist bra-burning voting right struggles are not familiar to us. We never had to fight!! All Indians got votng rights without discrmination.
Fact: we have had women persidents and priem-ministers and several misniters are various levels in politics.
WE have had many women saints, pioneers, artists and writers
We have women goddesses, not very common in the west where the 'father' is the 'lord'.
Women are generally treated with a whole lot of respect coresty politeness and kindness. Everyone is a mother/sister/brother. Is there teasing? yes. Is there teaisng and unwanted sexual overtures in the west? YES!!
LIke I said, America has the largest number of rape cases. Yet a white woman would come up and talk to me how terrible she thinks Indian women are treated. This is purely due to the media and not really true.
Fact: domestic violence is high in America.
In a hughly extreme feminsitic society, respect for men is seen as partiarchy. Women here fight for everything even if it is to the detriment of theeir families and health-aka-smoking, drinking drugging, sleeping outside marriage, being single-moms.
So they don't get that Indain women like to respect their bodies and sexuality, respect elders and respet their men. Indian women traditioanlly have a lot of power in the house There is a shared responsibility and power. But a biased media shows Indian men as tyrants and American men as respectful.
My personal expereince has been that I have seen domestic violence abuse through white men in America. Never been mistreated by an Indian man or seen Indian men behave badly with their wives. So stereotypes like this one are not true and theur frustrate me when a white woman comes up completely convinced she is the 'emancipated feminist' and all other women in other cultures are struggling an waiting on the white woman to redeem them!! THis atttitude comes across vey condescending too. But we don't want to offend them by saying that we have healthy happy and stable houselholds support from our in-laws and like our mutually respectful community of indviduals who care about each other. We don't arge with a selfish individualism that makes women single parents here. So we politely refuse conversations while noticing how they dress to attract yet another man and look for some source of support and validation having fought againt men and family system. To each their own.
Isn't that just the younger generation? All the young kids are on cellphone 24/7 regardless of ethnicity. I can easily see a white/Black..American parents making the same comment between texting and instagram and Facebook and tweeter...there is no end.
I am guilty of being on the phone all the time but that has more to do with my age group than my ethnicity. You are not going to see my 60 year old dad on cellphone as you will see my 20 year old siblings.
The part about "staying at work till 8pm or 10 pm" in the article made me smile. At my work, the Indian subcontinent employee tend to stay well past 7pm while majority of coworkers are heading out by 4pm. It is not because we work hard, we are just not morning people. The last people to enter the building are Indians and as so we are the last to walk out. Also we have no sense of time regardless of how high position one is or how crunched on time one is, clock is just not our friend.
One thing is the time-difference between India and America. When it is morning here it is night over there and vice versa. So one has to call when it is feasible forr both parties. Often it is not a relaxed time when at home, but at some busy times while shopping etc.
I truely believe that the person who wrote that article has either not stepped foot in India for a long time or is just socializing with a real uncouth crowd.
Every culture comes with some nuances. While sitting on the floor and eating food off a banana leaf may sound unhygienic to most but to a large section of the society its very sacred. Also a lot of 'claims' in that article are so generic that it can be used with any culture/race/country of citizenship.
Trust me indians do use a deodrand and they dont wear hawai chappal to work, EVEN IN INDIA!
The problem is that western people have often seen 'others' as 'savage and barbarian'. THis attitute has allowed the western civilizations to destroy many native cultures. Also the western cultures are quite 'left-brained' and don't 'get' the intuitive an spiritual ways being in sync wyth nature that many acient traditions have evolved to allow. So also, they have a 'holier-than-though' missinary attitudes and often ready to help 'civilize' the parts of the world which does not act like them. So they are not very open or humble to new ideas. THis lack of himility allows them to shame, mock and write article and make docmentaries about 'poor' and 'underdeveloped' countries. One would not see documentaries made by the educated people in these underdeveloped' countries taht show the problems in their 'developed' world.
It is a matter of power and western superiority. This is also reflected by how they make sterotypes about the blacks in America and justify it to keep them from prosperity. THis is just my opinion.
Between I grew up eating on the sacred, clean and easy to dspose of and very nevironmentally friendly banana leaf...it is so wonderful and gives a fresh organic feeling to eat on it. THose who expereince living in a simple way close to nature won't give it up, unlesss they are repeatedly shamed and criticized by the westren media due to which the youbger generation gets ashamaed of our own wonderful tranditions and adopts western ways.
I also remember how people used talcum powder rather than the chemical and toxic roll-on deos that people in the wets use and never smelled and BO. Also as a culture we are more 'earthy' and close to nature and don't abhorr the smell or feel of humanness. About the 'hawai chappal'. I grew up barefooted inside the hosue. One had to keep the floor so clean as to not feel any dust under the feet. So the house would be swept and mopped twice a day and swept many more times. We would never wear shoes/sandals worn otside th house in the house and keep the dust oustide,. It is so much hygeinic than how westerners wear the same shoes into the house as what they wear oustide! We also wash our hands face and feet each time we enter the house. We never step out without showeing offering prayers and placing some wonderful smelling sandalwood paste on our foreheads.
In America, I think people keep all windows and doors closed, breathe the same air taht is recirculated ...I find it quite suffocating. I think energies need to leave and enter freely. It feels quite unhealthy to stay indoors in a ventilation system here. Being used to the 'open air' system, I find this suffocating and unhealthy. I NEVER had allergies or respiratory problems in India but had severe respiratory issues in America.
I also simply hate wearing shoes but have to do so because it is mandator in workplaces. Shoes and socks stink because they are not able to 'breathe'. My feet are used to 'breathing'. Feet are also known to release the toxic energies in the body. In the westren system with shoes, they get stuck. I appreciate shoes when it it cold and snowy, but at other times, I feel forced to wear them even though my expereince with the 'chappals' is so much more preferable. But Americans find it filthy and stuff. Who cares. They know very little of being close to nature and living in a joyous harmony with the environment. So one must take their negative opinions with a grain of salt and learn not to give their ignorance so much importance.
As a desi, it does bother me how insular, racist and slow to assimilate many Indians are as mentioned by non-Indians in this thread.
Again, I will probably see things differently especially compared to the 1st generation (like my parents) as I am a 1.5 generation American and was born in India but never lived there in my life.
Be proud of your own heritage and dont lose it in a quest to be accepted'.
One thing people should remember is that the vast majority of Indians - about 80% - are Hindu. A large part of Indian identity is tied to that ancient religion. Another 14% of Indians are Muslim.
Being Hindu or Muslim means that you don't necessarily believe much in Christianity or give it any special status. This is one reason why it is not that easy for Indians to assimilate socially in American society, even though most Indian Americans are economically successful.
We do have lots of Christians , Jains, and Jews too. Most religions co-exist almost peacefully on a daily basis. I used to be a lot more social with Americans and became more and more wary of coversations with them. THis is because Americans I think are not simply used to as much diversity as we are in INdia. So thy almost always make comemnts about our culture and how 'different' we are from them. In addition they regularly make offensive statements about our accents, express howck over our English proficeincy or mock the lack thereof, act like we have been 'saved' by the west and patronize our culture and lectire us on feminism.
I wish we just just have simple conversations about the weather and leave it alone. Uually in India, one would not bring up snsitive opics and difefrences. For example I would never tell my Muslim best friend or Christian freind omething I think about thir religion or cuoture. I get invited to Christmas and they get invited for Dwali. We just just rake the pot for differences because we are just so used to diversity and have a healthy acceptance of it. In America, they make us feel uncormfotable in social seetings by calling us awkward and nerdy and prudish (negative steroetypes) to our face. The other reason they talk to us to to find out how we cook and what spices are good for the body. They always seem to want us to cookf or them. Makes us feel untrusting and patronized. So eventually Indians try to find others of their own kind. We also have a difefrent social system and need our community. We need our kind of food and spices. So we tend to hang around at places where these are available.
I have seen the white foreigners in India to also occupy certain sections in the outskirts of the city. MOst while people in India aslo hang around together and segregate themselves when living in INdia.
Not giving my personal perception, but speaking as a whole:
The majority of Americans still have little contact with Indian people, outside of the doctor's office or local convenience store. The culture is strange to those not exposed to it...spicy food, complex language, Hindu religion as a whole, etc. So I'm not sure there is a negative perception as much as there is ignorance/lack of knowledge. We know more about the cultures of people whose immigrants have been here longer....China, Latin America, Europe. That will probably change over the coming decades but for now I'd say most Americans know little about India, and when people don't know or understand a culture there's usually skepticism until they do.
Speaking personally, I love Indian food and find the culture very interesting and complex. I work in a hospital, so of course interact regularly with Indian doctors & medical staff. Outside of work, Indian folks do seem to be insular and "stick to their own". It's different in major cities where younger Indians will hang out with their friends & coworkers socially, but in most of the country Indians mostly socialize with other Indians (especially first-generation immigrants). You even see that here on City Data....nearly every relocation thread from someone from India wants to live in an area with a lot of other Indians.
I am a first generation immigrant who is very open, social and friendly with everyone. I grew up acceting that everyone is 'equal' but can be differenet. Over my time living in America and other wstern countries, I have started to stay and shy awa from the American people and seek other Indians. THe reasons are : people in western countries seem to think that tey are more 'advanced' and civilized' and need to 'save ' other cultres from their 'backwardness'. THis attutude, often mixed with a very real lack of proper information about other relgions and respect for other culotures, soon erodes trust.
Alsoo as a group, I feel that Indians are subjected to a lot of nasty comments, jokes and snide remarks. People mock and shame their respect for cows while not looking at how they let dogs sleep in their own bed!! People start conversations with little real curiosity and tons of over-confidant generalizations based on media and their filtered perceptions of 'right and wrong'.
It is unfathmable to many Americans that it is considered great to be a virgin before marriage. In America people are shamed for that. So again all these major cultural difefrences and and overall insensitive western attitude makes us shy away from the regular public. I am a LOT more shy, reserved and careful in my conversations than I ever was, goin to school with kids from many religions economic statuses and food habits. We havd barely any bullying at all. So again, thats my perspective.
The new geberations are much more influenced by the lited western views and feel ashamed of their traditions and heritage and thus seem more otgoing and willing to 'be like them, join them and fit in' attitudes.
First generation immigrants like me highly respect and value our memories of the good quality of life we had in India, respect our various languages and mutual amicability and are attanched to our traditions lest they are lost just like the other people lost their languagesto English.
I also fear being seen as a Muslim and feel fo my Muslim brethern from India. In India despite various political issues related to religion, the common man got along with others and did not fear Muslims or CHristians. With so much shaming of Muslims I feel even more convinced of how little Americans are open to really seeing everyone as equal and are not really open to diversity. So that makes me a little reserved around people too.
Indians are still somewhat racist, there is a Bollywood slot on Portuguese TV now. Gee, all those actresses look like Europeans, not real Indians. I have friends in India, normal people, none of them looks like those Bollywood stars. But darker-skinned people, especially women, don't seem to be welcome in Bollywood.
Progressive thinkers are in danger these days as the Hindu radicals have created a rather tense atmosphere. Govind Pansare for instance was killed earlier this year because he advocated things conservative Hindus don't like, for instance marriage across different castes.
And of course there is the sexual violence problem, with regard to which even some politicians make absurd statements defending rapists.
My mother is British Indian but my father isn't, and I grew up in London. I've visited India several times and everytime I come back feeling so thankful that my mother married a non-Indian man and that we live in the UK. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be a young woman growing up in India!
Indian men complaining of racist assumptions against them is a supreme irony given that every advert, film and music video in the country features scantily clad white women being fetishised, groped and generally degraded by horrid, sexually predatory Indian men! It's the single most racist country I have ever been to and it was incredibly embarrassing how much creepy fawning and harassment my blonde friend was subjected to when she decided to visit.
Many of the Indian men you encounter on the streets will spit, empty their noses and excrete on the roads which is just grotesque and uncouth and not something I've encountered in any other countrymen, no matter how poor. I've been stalked, groped and cat called more times each day I spent on the the Indian streets/ in public transport than my entire life in London, which is hardly the safest of cities in itself! There is also a BIG problem with alcoholism amongst working class Indian men and nearly every affluent household will have a maid who is forced to work under in humane conditions (with no formal contract or worker rights) to support her abusive husband's drinking habit.
Indian culture raises men to be dowry gold-diggers (all other patriarchal cultures have the opposite, a bride price, to compensate women for their domestic labour and their sacrifice in moving into and caring for the husband's family) and social life for the upper classes revolves around gaudy, obscenely ostentatious wedding paid for by the bride's family, where the groom proudly accepts jewellery, cars, expensive watches from his bride! And so much of the daily gossip I've witnessed revolves around how much to save and spend for a daughter's wedding or how much a son's new wife is going to be 'worth'. This is especially distasteful when juxtaposed with the obvious and crippling poverty in the country.
I think this definitely makes South Asian countries the worst for women because not one other patriarchal culture (be it East Asia, Middle East or North Africa) would condone men shameless exploitating their wives financially instead of providing for them (it's so bad that thousands of women are killed each year for not giving their husbands enough gold / land / cash). So in my opinion the way in which India differs from Thailand and China (other than these obviously being far more economically and infrastructurally developed) is that it is a lot more unsafe for women (for example, even in the small towns in China and Thailand I regularly saw women in western clothes cycling and riding their scooters around at all hours without worry) and there is dowry rather than bride price, which alters social dynamics very significantly and makes it a much more misogynistic society.
So visiting India is an eye opening experience for me because it teaches me to be thankful for everything I have and to realise how very tough some women have it but it's just about my least favourite/ most uncivilised country in every imaginable way and it is without question the worst politically stable place for a woman to visit, especially a white woman.
Obviously a very biased article with HUGE exaggerations and extrapolations based on limited evidence and facts.
Those parts concern thd domestic help. One does not always have to have written contracts to have a secure employment if there is trust. THis is something western people may not be able to understand. The maids ahve their own unions and if a maid refuses to work the hosehold would suffera nd come to a halt!! Lack of a written contract is not an issue since people hire the maids to work for them and give them a good remuneration, ofte trating them like family members. Of course like in any employment, tere are good bosses and bad bosses. But one thing I know is that is is not easy to hire a good trustworthy domestic help if someone else quit at the house. They have a network and union. They are also trusted s much that they sweep and clean the house in the absence of the owners being preset! And tey certainy don't work under 'inhumane' conditions. They work at assigned times to wash dishes and clothes and clean the house. Most Indian households dont have dishwashers. Dishwashers and waser-dryers use a LOT of water. A single person in the west uses up more water and natural resources than a family in India. THe maid is given lots of remunerations, food, tea conversations and treate with a whole lot of respect. If they chose to quit work the woman of th house would beg her and giev her expensive sarees to coax her to work!!
Reagrding the blonde and white girls being catcalled. The introduction on pron came from the west. It showed most white women engaging ins exula cats. Just like people in teh west get a ditorted views of people in other coutries due to a skewed media, the repeated exposure to white woman in mostly ONE kind of a medium-that of porn greatly influenced who Indian and other men from th surrounding areas view white women. Also, white women have an open attitute about sexual freedom. Where sex is considered sacred and kept for married coouples, a woman who has sex 'freely' is seen as having low opinions of herself and invites derogatory remarks from the men. They see her as not respecting herlsef or her body ad therefore open to being a target of their lust. White women think that women in other countries don't respect themselves and chose to stay virgins until marriage. So this culturally contrasting views, adding to how white women show off their bodies to the public make them target of sterotyped ideas and incure nwanted sexual advances. a White woman wearing little make-p and wearinga 'salwar-kameez' is seen as having adapted to the ideas of persoal sncity and is usually lef alone. Still they think it is a farce and that white women are open to having sex with anyone. That is a stereotype. Unfortunately that is a fact as far as I can tell. It did not help that many white women like to drink and lose their inhbitions, go to bars and pick up men. So they end up picking up some weird guy since 'good' INdian men from respectable families are usually home with their wife ad children at night. So the bar is crowded with the wrong type.
There might be some alcoholism but certainly not as much as in the west. Overall in the west, to drink a little is considered cool. To drink a lot or compulsively is considered alcoholic. In INdia, to drink alcohol is NEVER respectable or sonething to be proud of.
It seemed you experenced the white woman sterotype and also somehow manged to express some sort of a condecensiona nd lack of respct fro th INdian culture which boomeranged. It does not also help that you are partly BRitish. The bRitish have long condecsended and looted the country. THeys till condescend the country. So some kind of a minor backlash and mostly yoru own disgust and sweked perceptions influence your experience. I grew up as girl in INdia and feel that it is much more dangerous to be girl in the west. Self respect and sanctity are eroded, girls put out and ge abused by avrious men and barely enjoy a stable married life before having to become a siingle-mom and take care of (aka neglect) children and push them through divorces, heartbreaks, constan dating and search for a new man and step father half brothers.....
I had a very lucky and respectable upbringing in India and gained some deep revereance forcertain things that I cannot even explain to te western people. So to each ethir own. YOu think you are very lucky and INdian girls are unlucky. I think you girls are so unlucky but don't een have the openness to realise it.
I feel very lucky to have been born an brought up in INdia eventhough I am also aware of an quite open to the problems in my countr...(something western women like you seem to find very had to admit for yoru own cultures).
That's the point I'm trying to make. Dowry is an inherent part of Indian culture, and even the most wealthy social elite practise and demand it- it is simply not frowned upon as the disgusting, exploitative custom it is. Even the maids I mentioned will not spend money on critical needs like education but will ask employers for loans to fund this dowry- I have witnessed this with my own eyes, so I know it goes all the way across the spectrum from the vey bottom to the very top.
I've read several academic articles to try and understand it and they have shown that the amount of dowry (adjusted for inflation and as a percentage of family net worth) demanded by parents and grooms is actually increasing, not decreasing. You only have to look at the extravagant cars/ houses given as dowry and widely publicised by the Indian media (as part of the celebrity weddings that I mentioned) to understand the kind of stress this new consumerist culture puts on middle class and poor people to meet groom's dowry demands.
Trust me, talk to a Chinese/ Thai/ Saudi/ Ugandan person- learn about the practise of bride price and compensating the bride's family for patrilinearity and you will realise how very much worse Indian women have it, even compared to women from other patriarchal cultures! South Asia is the ONLY part of the world that despite being a heavily patriarchal and deeply unequal culture sees absolutely no shame in financially exploitating the woman and making her family provide for his! No non-South Asian person would even be able to comprehend the concept around a woman buying a husband with money, gold, cars and houses. I say this because my father comes from a very patriarchal culture but one that practises bride price and my personal experience is that it alters social dynamics so much compared to the frankly parasitic relationship norms that are widely prevalent in India.
And despite what you say India IS a patrilineal culture. Your point about nuclear families might be true in the USA where the majority of Indians are first generation immigrants but in India it has been found that 70-75% of urban families are patrilineal and involve the bride living with and caring for her in-laws. And of course, whether in the UK, USA or India , the Indian women do the majority of housework (see OECD data which shows Indian men do the least housework of all nationalities surveyed). How utterly shameful that despite all this she needs to pay a dowry to serve her husband and his family!
Again, dowry practise killed thousands of women directly through dowry deaths and millions of female infants indirectly (not feotus but infant! India is the ONLY country in the world where female infanticide is widely practised and sex ratios keeps declining even after birth- see the recent shameful UN warning about this). I can't believe I even need to explain why this practise is so evil and how widely prevalent it is should be obvious from the disastrous child and infant sex ratios that actually worsen with economic wealth!
I'm simply not going to engage in this debate anymore. Nevertheless, thank you for a civil discussion.
Te surveys were obvoously sweked...there you go with your shaming and criticisms were you say it is utterly shaeful that INdian women are known to do most of the hosuework. Guess what Indian women are more likely to be houewives- what you guys call 'stay-at-home' wives. Depeneding upon what year that survey was made it makesthe interpretation totally difefernt. In my expereince, my father did and still does a LOT of household work especially if my mother gets tired. o it is with my uncles and oter men in the family.
Also my mother was the only working women in the neighbourhood. So the others stayed at home and did the housework. Also INdian women are more likley to quit their jobs for a baby and give their family hug prioprities. We don't like our children being raised by teenagers being paid by the hour. Due to high family values and an innate respect for their bodies, Indan women may wat to give temselves time off of work to recover and care for children...so again stay-athome. Due to having arranged marriages, they are less risk of ebing abandoned or abused when they get financially dependent in such a way.
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