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It is not true that British did not plan to give Hong Kong any political freedom before '97.
In 60s, Britain had granted political freedom to most of its colonies, i.e. Singapore, Malaya, Uganda, Fiji, Kenya,.....etc. It was China that opposed Britain to place Hong Kong into the UN Decolonization list.
Every time the British Hong Kong government tried to implement political reform, i.e. partial direct election of legislature in '88, it was China that blocked it.
The present grievance in Hong Kong stemmed from the fact that China has gone back on its promise. For example, Beijing promised that people in Hong Kong can choose its own leader in the Basic Law. But when Beijing finally said yes, it added that the candidates must get its approval first. Such "approval" is nowhere found in the Basic Law.
Anyway, after Beijing forced such draconian national security law in Hong Kong, don't expect that the unrest will quiet down. It only scares those who are the backbones in HK society to emigrate. But those demonstrators, who basically have nothing to lose, will be acting more violently, with or without the law.
really? you know what happened in hong kong in 1967? I don't think britain has ever given any democracy to any of their colonies based on what the founding father of singapore said.
it's obvious that any any push political reform by the british after the joint declaration is hypocritical. "it's time for hk to become a democracy since we are handing it back in 10 or so years"
they did not really read the basic law then. It outlines that the candidate must be approved by the "selection committee".
The demonstrators have nothing to lose? really? that's the problem with the people behind the scenes, the demonstrators have everything to lose, with the new laws, those behind the scenes will join them in jail if they dare to contiue pulling strings behind the scenes.
Doesn't matter. No one should be forced to live under the CCP. Its an authoritarian regime that harvests uigher organs.
Xi's a trouble maker and should be tried for crimes against humanity. he's Cao cao.
I don't know, Cap Cap was a genius, can't compare Xi to Cao Cao. Xi Jinping is like an Al Capone style mafia boss or El Chapo druglord, except this time he's ruler of the biggest country on earth and therefore that much more dangerous.
Xi Jinping is simply a Cultural Revolution Red Guard on steroids.
It states that the Chief executive should be chosen by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee as an eventual goal.
It is Nominating Committee, not Selection Committee which you wrote.
It states that the Chief executive should be chosen by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee as an eventual goal.
It is Nominating Committee, not Selection Committee which you wrote.
my bad. thank you for pointing this out. but the those pan democratic doesn't want that in 2014, they want to be able to nominate any candidate themselves and not go through a nominating committee.
the chief executive is currently chosen by the "selection committee", which becomes the nominating committee had that 2014 reform got through, and we will see a more exciting election as the people can vote on the candidates first chosen by the nominating committee.
I don't know, Cap Cap was a genius, can't compare Xi to Cao Cao. Xi Jinping is like an Al Capone style mafia boss or El Chapo druglord, except this time he's ruler of the biggest country on earth and therefore that much more dangerous.
Xi Jinping is simply a Cultural Revolution Red Guard on steroids.
The reality is that all pathways by themselves are longshots, and few in number is still a better shot than even less in number which is what having any emphasis on attacks on Chinese in general as a people rather than the CCP does. 1989 was only the effort that was largest and covered by international news agencies--it is far from the only and the people who participated and crushed in 1989 for the most part didn't seem to end up as cheerleaders for the CCP.
I never said these were mutually exclusive, only that they are likely to be the most amenable to having positions that are against the CCP (enemy of your enemy is your friend) or have come outright in supporting HK and Taiwan which is certainly true.
Aligning people's own agendas with your and my own like Taiwanese independence from CCP is akin to actual strategies that have worked historically. Besides, a disrupted China dealing with its internal issues can still work out in Taiwan and HK's favor though obviously there can be the setting of a bogeyman to divert attention from internal issues which is something that a pushback against aggressively anti-Chinese, not just anti-CCP, can ride on pretty easily.
I have no qualms with calling the reliance on solely foreign leanings against the CCP is naive. I said that already. It is not by itself a strategy that seems workable at this point, but that's different from saying that no one believes or is actively trying to solicit that as a believed main recourse. This "their only shot" thing you mentioned about national interests still relies on general popular sentiment. Guess what, some countries have populaces that aren't too enticed by messaging of overt bigotry towards Chinese people overall especially since some of those countries that do have the ability to project some power have first and second generation Chinese immigrants who may be pro-democracy and anti-CCP but might take a bit of umbrage and be hesitant to support movements that so vocally state that the Chinese are subhuman. I already noted this and you need to realize this.
Your reminder is noted and still kind of useless, because I already stated such. The USSR collapsed for various reasons, but at least some of it was because of how untenable it was to hold the union together given the disparate groups asking for independence working together including overseas Russians to bring about the fall of the USSR. Not every goal each group and person had was aligned, but enough of it was aligned to help make it happen. You also need to remember that even in this short thread, you were the one who had stated This is very obviously even within recent history not true, and I gave an example of where that was not true. You're the one who mentioned that it wasn't how things went for sexuality, and I gave you a very concrete counter example.
If you have any inclination towards wanting a Taiwan or HK that isn't under the oppressive rule of the current day CCP, then you should reconsider how you arrived at your counterproductive anti-Chinese mainlanders as a people narrative. Even if you think trying to bring them in helps fairly little, there isn't much other recourse and it almost certainly does not help. Even if you can't personally stop your prejudice for mainlanders as a general group, then at least realize that strategically it is nonsense, and I ask you, please direct your energy in regards to HK and Taiwanese independence elsewhere.
As a side note, there are also gradients here. A progressive, prosperous and democratic China that is open to unification with HK and Taiwan is far, which is not my preference over independence for various reasons, is still far preferable than forced annexation by a conservative, authoritarian CCP-controlled China. This is also part of why it matters that HK and Taiwan is able to befriend and bolster anti-CCP and anti-authoritarian allies within the mainland and dissidents within and outside of China.
I guess I'm just more realistic than you. I am really ****ing sick of being told that we should be civil and nice with China and mainlanders when they have always been anything but.
Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I can't give less of a **** about their hurt feelings or their doomed, practically non-existent democratic movements. Again, it's not anyone else's fault that they are so vilified. They made their own bed and they should sleep in it.
I guess I'm just more realistic than you. I am really ****ing sick of being told that we should be civil and nice with China and mainlanders when they have always been anything but.
Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. I can't give less of a **** about their hurt feelings or their doomed, practically non-existent democratic movements. Again, it's not anyone else's fault that they are so vilified. They made their own bed and they should sleep in it.
It doesn't matter if you're done with this discussion--you're not being more realistic. The only thing you're realistically doing is working on just your little part in narrowing the already narrow odds that an independent Taiwan or Hong Kong can exist in the near future. It's very reasonable to be angry at the CCP and express it, but it's not the same as vilifying the people themselves for dint of having been born there. It doesn't just get in the way of just trying to win mainlanders over including those who dissent from the CCP mainline, but it also alienates overseas Chinese and people who are not Chinese at all that could be sympathetic to Taiwan and HK, but aren't particularly enthused by bigotry.
There's well over a billion mainland Chinese that you're making that assessment of from many different walks of life and if you've never really gotten to know any of them since you have your own bigotry that probably does a good job of preventing you from knowing any possible allies, then that's pretty expected though it doesn't make what you see accurate. It's also frankly stupid for many reasons already mentioned, but you're also sort of a devout miserabilist so at least that's in character.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 06-01-2020 at 07:33 AM..
It would seem China isn't sophisticated enough to rule via 1 country 2 systems. The death knell of meaningful democracy in Hong Kong means that any takeover of Taiwan will certainly never be allowed to happen. Perhaps it's time for world leaders to do their part in assuring Taiwan and other ASEAN leaders that there will be no further repetition of Neville Chamberlain's past follies.
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