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Laughably biased figures. You only picked this data set to make America look bad.
I picked that dataset because they use median wages for individuals adjusted for cost of living. As we know, income inequality in the USA is very high and I am not interested in data that is artifically boosted boosted by a minority of very rich people or data that is boosted by a strong currency. I also want to look at individuals to prevent family size to be a factor. Not suprisingly, you went straight ahead and used average salaries not adjusted for cost of living.
If we use median wages for individuals adjusted for cost of living, then you can see that american wages are not that high. That fits what I personally see too, the average american do not earn $30 an hour. In fact many earn around $10 an hour and the median was $19 in 2019 which matches the figure below.
Spoiler
Median wages 2017 adjusted for cost of living
Switzerland: 63543
Germany: 54476
Denmark: 51601
France: 40291
US: 38445
Spain: 34520
Estonia: 23210
Also, any half decent American companies would offer paid leaves, decent health insurance plan, and maternity leaves. European welfare state is only good in few selective countries, and it's in a precarious position as the society is extremely aged. Pensions are getting cut left and right in Western and Northern Europe and people have been protesting. Have you already forgotten about gilets jaunes?
And in Southern Europe you have extremely high taxes and none of those perks. To say less about Eastern Europe. Overall, Europe is just not doing well.
Right, because there are no large European countries with ridiculous amount of debt. Italy's **** indebted economy is totally not a problem at all.
Who cares what people who work at decent companies get? What we care about is what the average american get. The average American take out 17 days of vacation days a year, get 7 days of sick leave each year and new mums will either need to take 12 weeks of unpaid leave or quit work. If they send their kids to daycare the average cost is $15000 per year. In western europe it is normal with around 35 vacation days a year, sick leave for many months, new mums get most of their salary for a year and child care is heavily subsidized. That makes a big difference.
Eastern Europe was impoverished under USSR and only started to grow in the late 90s. Southern Europe has always been poorer than America. The fact that you feel a need to compare America with countries like that just proves my point that America is in decline. In the 90s people were comparing America to the best countries in Europe and arguing that America is the best country in the world.
Going from potentially the best country in the world to better than Spain and Poland is a sign of decline.
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And Boris Johnson, a European leader, got infected months before Donald Trump did. The reality is both Europe and America totally failed to contain the virus.
Boris Johnson is not the leader of EU, he got infected before we could test properly or even knew how many were actually infected, and he never went out and turned it into a joke like Trump did.
Not comparable!
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No one is arguing that America is perfect. It obviously is not. But strictly talking about the economy, America ****s all over Europe's sluggish 2010s. That is just a fact.
Only if you include countries that America never compared themselves with earlier. Other countries like Germany and Netherlands has had lower unemployment rate than the US, similar wage growth, a much better trade balance and budget deficit. Running a massive budget deficit combined with a massive trade deficit is not sustainable.
Also, why only economy? The increasing drug overdoses, the rise of homelessness, the massive increase in health care costs, the decline in life expectancy, increase in maternal mortality rate, the riots, are all signs of a nation in decline.
^ Well aside from the obvious that this topic has a "lot" to do with South Korea the whole thread turned into apples vs oranges debate: country (America) vs a continent (Europe). Economically America always had the advantage anyway, lack of monarchy, natural resources, popular language etc etc.
It's always amazing how a thread in a forum dedicated to ASIA turns into a debate about America, particularly the politics. Then you get these guys pulling metrics and statistics out of there ass, hunting and choosing which one favors there argument and ignoring others. And the slum dwelling posters from the P&C forum slither in. And what's amusing is most of these posters don't live in Asia and have never even been there.
The US is fine and stable, economically and socially, always will be. Maybe time to return the topic.
I picked that dataset because they use median wages for individuals adjusted for cost of living. As we know, income inequality in the USA is very high and I am not interested in data that is artifically boosted boosted by a minority of very rich people or data that is boosted by a strong currency. I also want to look at individuals to prevent family size to be a factor. Not suprisingly, you went straight ahead and used average salaries not adjusted for cost of living.
If we use median wages for individuals adjusted for cost of living, then you can see that american wages are not that high. That fits what I personally see too, the average american do not earn $30 an hour. In fact many earn around $10 an hour and the median was $19 in 2019 which matches the figure below.
The fact that this is adjusted for cost of living is meaningless already. An iPhone 12 is cheaper in the US than in Spain, by a huge margin.
And median was never relevant in the first place. I was referring to economic growth and dominance. The US tech giants dominated the 2010s while Europe was busy with crisis after crisis. That is just a fact.
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Who cares what people who work at decent companies get? What we care about is what the average american get. The average American take out 17 days of vacation days a year, get 7 days of sick leave each year and new mums will either need to take 12 weeks of unpaid leave or quit work. If they send their kids to daycare the average cost is $15000 per year. In western europe it is normal with around 35 vacation days a year, sick leave for many months, new mums get most of their salary for a year and child care is heavily subsidized. That makes a big difference.
Eastern Europe was impoverished under USSR and only started to grow in the late 90s. Southern Europe has always been poorer than America. The fact that you feel a need to compare America with countries like that just proves my point that America is in decline. In the 90s people were comparing America to the best countries in Europe and arguing that America is the best country in the world.
Going from potentially the best country in the world to better than Spain and Poland is a sign of decline.
Lol, Southern and Eastern Europe collectively account for more than half of European population, but of course, cherry pick the ~7 European countries that enjoy the luxury of generous welfare state which is completely unsustainable.
And even with all the maternity leaves and child care subsidies, birth rate in America is higher than most European countries. You have obviously conveniently avoided addressing the fact that America's population is projected to gain 100 million by 2050 while Europe is projected to lose 15% of its population.
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Boris Johnson is not the leader of EU, he got infected before we could test properly or even knew how many were actually infected, and he never went out and turned it into a joke like Trump did.
Not comparable!
Who said he was the leader of the EU? I said he was the leader of a European country.
Also, he contracted the virus at the end of March, after the virus already exploded in Europe. And he didn't turn it into a joke? Well, his chief adviser certainly did.
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Only if you include countries that America never compared themselves with earlier. Other countries like Germany and Netherlands has had lower unemployment rate than the US, similar wage growth, a much better trade balance and budget deficit. Running a massive budget deficit combined with a massive trade deficit is not sustainable.
Of all European countries only a handful of them could be argued as having done well over the past decade, and only Germany is a large economy. Britain completely shot themselves on the foot with Brexit and France has been sluggish af to say the least. To say less about Italy and Spain. But sure, Germany doing ok = Europe collectively has done better than America. Lol give me a break.
Also, it's really ironic that you keep applauding Europe's vacation policy while you live in a country with far less vacation time than the US. If Europe is so awesome why haven't you moved back?
Not to mention, trade deficit and surplus have nothing to do with whether an economy is good or not. Australia and Canada both run a huge trade deficit as well. It means nothing.
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Also, why only economy? The increasing drug overdoses, the rise of homelessness, the massive increase in health care costs, the decline in life expectancy, increase in maternal mortality rate, the riots, are all signs of a nation in decline.
Homelessness per 100,000
New Zealand - 94
Germany - 79
Australia - 47
United Kingdom - 46
Canada - 36
Sweden - 36
The Netherlands - 23
France - 21
United States - 17
Just because Los Angeles and San Francisco have a ton of homeless people doesn't mean the entire country is the same. Please think more critically than emotionally because you are sounding like a Global Times smear campaign.
You have also conveniently missed IMF projections on Europe's epic recession in 2020, which will most likely persist till 2021. Case number is already higher in Europe than in America as we speak.
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It's always amazing how a thread in a forum dedicated to ASIA turns into a debate about America, particularly the politics. Then you get these guys pulling metrics and statistics out of there ass, hunting and choosing which one favors there argument and ignoring others. And the slum dwelling posters from the P&C forum slither in. And what's amusing is most of these posters don't live in Asia and have never even been there.
He started it.
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The US is fine and stable, economically and socially, always will be. Maybe time to return the topic.
This is all I'm saying. He is fixated on his inaccurate prejudice about America.
He started it.
This is all I'm saying. He is fixated on his inaccurate prejudice about America.
I know it man, it wasn't directed at you. I was tempted to add comments to the other guys nonsense as well but then thought "why bother".
You can see from his history what his favorite forum is. It explains alot.
Also, it's really ironic that you keep applauding Europe's vacation policy while you live in a country with far less vacation time than the US. If Europe is so awesome why haven't you moved back?
I work for a Norwegian company and has Norwegian salary and vacation time. Without vacation time or a decent salary, I would not be able to go on vacations and then I would prefer to live in Norway.
I mainly moved because of the cold weather, boring food, small family, weak school system and being bored.
For the rest, you seem to really want this to be a competition between Europe and America, but that was never my point. I said America is declining, and you disagreed and said Americas economy has performed exceptionally well and Europe must be a corpse if America has declined. That is why I keep refusing your comparisons to the whole Europe, because America never compared themselves with countries like Spain, let alone Poland. The fact that America is still better than countries like Spain, do not prove that America is not declining.
And when you start making comparisons of the current year, then you are totally missing the point. What we care about is the increase. For instance, 10 years ago Venice Beach was a place for restaurants and artists, now its filled with homeless. If we want to see if a country is declining, then we need to look at the change over time such as the increase in drug overdoses, that you can see in the chart below.
Drug overdoses is just an example, health care costs has skyrocketed, public deficit has increased massively, labour force participation rate is dropping, stagnating wages, life expectancy is dropping, maternal mortality is increasing, fertility rate is dropping, more riots, crime is increasing and more. The only things I can think of that has improved is the tech industry and agriculture.
Most developed countries including NATO members, S Korea, Japan and Israel are allies of the US.
Actually many people in developed countries are not big fans of the US. Governments' pro US policies are not supported by 100% of the population.
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Originally Posted by euro123
I hate how my favorite countries, notably S. Korea, Japan and Israel are such fans of America...I should immigrate to Beijing and unite with fellow commies...
Most developed countries including NATO members, S Korea, Japan and Israel are allies of the US.
Actually many people in developed countries are not big fans of the US. Governments' pro US policies are not supported by 100% of the population.
Some posters are intent on derailing the topic with there own agenda items, just ignore them.
Anyways, this "quad" seems to be somewhat informal. Alliances and treaties already exist with all these countries and have existed for decades, all these forged over deep historical context and background - Korea essentialy forged in blood (Korean War), For Israel the US was one of the first countries to support the jewish homeland and gave it's support during it's wars with the Arab states, for Japan it relates to the peaceful occupation and rebuilding of Japan following WW2:
S. Korea - Mutual Defense Treaty from 1953 still exists (and they held up there bargain by fighting in the Vietnam War). There are also various trade and economic agreements - one of them being the US/South Korea trade agreement (KORAS).
Japan likewise has a form mutual defense treaty with the US - "Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan" along with various trade agreements.
Israel - There is, surprisingly, no formal defense treaty between the US and Israel but it exists in such forms as "10-year security assistance Memorandum of Understanding", etc. Also "USAID-MASHAV Global Partnership Memorandum of Understanding"
Historical memories fade however, and it's based on mutual need. These three countries all all pro-western but there is growing questions, particularly with the fading of the cold war, on if these treaties are still needed. In Europe it seems, when Russian tanks were no longer pointing west at the East German border and they no longer needed the US military might to save there worthless ass, they suddenly decided that "US Bad". Now China is a looming threat, particularly in some hot spots like the contested Spratly Island, and you have former enemies like Vietnam ironically coming to the US and say "hey will you save our ass?" How times change.
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