Repent -- or else (believe, testimony, punishment, scrutiny)

[mordant]

My anti-testimony appears to have struck a nerve with someone who is hiding behind the handle, "Mr Jangles". Here is a private message I received today:

Hear the word of the Lord concerning you and your family.

Every blessing that you and your family take for granted and do not use to bless the name of the Lord, it shall be taken from you and them.

A space of time has been granted to you and and your family, to repent and take the blessings of the Lord, that have been given to you and them to bless the name of the Lord, that you do not use to bless the name of the Lord. To take them and bless the name of the Lord.

And when that space of time, that you and your family have been granted, has ended, if you and your family have not repented and taken all of these blessings of the Lord that the Lord has given to you and your family, to bless the name of the Lord, and blessed the name of the Lord with all of them. They will be taken from you and your family and given to another who will
bring forth the fruit of righteousness.

If you and your family do repent and do take the blessings of the Lord that He has given to you to bless the name of the Lord, and do bless the name of the Lord with them, as long as you continue to do so, they shall not depart from you. But if you return to your old ways and leave off from using the blessings of the Lord, to bless the name of the Lord, they shall depart from
you and your family, and be given to another to bring
forth the fruit of righteousness.

It is written....

the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away;
blessed be the name of the LORD.

It is written....

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

It is written....

Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

This is a window into the twisted dark uncompassionate heart of fundamentalism (admittedly in this case, the charismatic department thereof, as many fundamentalists deny prophetic utterance as a modern day "gift of the holy spirit" and the NT doesn't even define what such a gift consists of or would look like).

This communique pretty much speaks for itself, but it does highlight a few basics:

1) It restates a position long since discredited with anyone who has deconverted, which is that if you obey god will bless you (and by implication, all cursed aspects of your existence have to do with disobedience). This fails to address the POE from anyone's perspective, much less a deconvert's, as you cannot ascribe anything close to 100% of human suffering to "sin", even allowing the concept of sin for sake of argument.

2) It takes the role of god's mouthpiece, something you would think a believer would tremble to do, yet invariably they are all too eager to do. During my brief stint attending an AOG church, it was always the same few exhibitionists holding forth like this. The same impotent and wholly unimpressive regurgitation of dogma and not at all what a genuine pronouncement of god would consist of. Where in this diatribe is the love, compassion, healing, and encouragement from this supposedly omnibenevolent god who is eager to reconcile all to himself? Where indeed was the expression of his omnipotence when it was actually needed? It's long since too late for that now.

This is daily reality for people in the charismatic movement, and in a less overt way, for all fundamentalists. In reality, your outward life has to conform to standard expectations of dogma or you are judged harshly. It is a major aspect of how the sheeple are kept in line, and it is their constant anxiety that ordinary misfortune and the vicissitudes of life will give their fellow believers an excuse to find them wanting (and leverage to feel better about themselves).

This is also amusing from another aspect ... does god want to bless my family? Which one? My third one? I'm not even officially married this time! You'd think this "prophet" would know that and not be holding out hope for me. I can pretty much guarantee that Mr Jangle's "event horizon" consists of my first, conventionally fundamentalist (and completely insane) first wife, who god (if I believed in his existence) abandoned to the nut-hatch over two decades ago. My motherless children are already struggling adults. The time for this prophetic utterance came and went a human generation ago.

The impertinence is staggering.

[chuckmann]

Originally Posted by mordant

My anti-testimony appears to have struck a nerve with someone who is hiding behind the handle, "Mr Jangles". Here is a private message I received today:

This is a window into the twisted dark uncompassionate heart of fundamentalism (admittedly in this case, the charismatic department thereof, as many fundamentalists deny prophetic utterance as a modern day "gift of the holy spirit" and the NT doesn't even define what such a gift consists of or would look like).

This communique pretty much speaks for itself, but it does highlight a few basics:

1) It restates a position long since discredited with anyone who has deconverted, which is that if you obey god will bless you (and by implication, all cursed aspects of your existence have to do with disobedience). This fails to address the POE from anyone's perspective, much less a deconvert's, as you cannot ascribe anything close to 100% of human suffering to "sin", even allowing the concept of sin for sake of argument.

2) It takes the role of god's mouthpiece, something you would think a believer would tremble to do, yet invariably they are all too eager to do. During my brief stint attending an AOG church, it was always the same few exhibitionists holding forth like this. The same impotent and wholly unimpressive regurgitation of dogma and not at all what a genuine pronouncement of god would consist of. Where in this diatribe is the love, compassion, healing, and encouragement from this supposedly omnibenevolent god who is eager to reconcile all to himself? Where indeed was the expression of his omnipotence when it was actually needed? It's long since too late for that now.

This is daily reality for people in the charismatic movement, and in a less overt way, for all fundamentalists. In reality, your outward life has to conform to standard expectations of dogma or you are judged harshly. It is a major aspect of how the sheeple are kept in line, and it is their constant anxiety that ordinary misfortune and the vicissitudes of life will give their fellow believers an excuse to find them wanting (and leverage to feel better about themselves).

I received something similar from him, probably because while a Christian, I am something of a universalist, and therefore anathema to the thumpers. I replied that I preferred he did not contact me privately, deleted his message, and let it go at that.

Why do you feel you need to make a public issue of one fanatic who, with all due respect, is guilty of nothing other than overzealousness. Do you get a lot of these kinds of personal mails ? You could always have just reported him and let it go at that.

So why bring this public? Self importance? Looking for reasons to be offended?Just being a particular kind of member of the equine family?

[mordant]

Originally Posted by chuckmann

I received something similar from him, probably because while a Christian, I am something of a universalist, and therefore anathema to the thumpers. I replied that I preferred he did not contact me privately, deleted his message, and let it go at that.

Why do you feel you need to make a public issue of one fanatic who, with all due respect, is guilty of nothing other than overzealousness. Do you get a lot of these kinds of personal mails ? You could always have just reported him and let it go at that.

So why bring this public? Self importance? Looking for reasons to be offended?Just being a particular kind of member of the equine family?

Why not bring it public? I think I'd be a horse's patootie not to expose this guy's ramblings to the light of day. It is far more likely to give him pause than to leave it in the shadows where the coward wants it, exempt from rational scrutiny or public shame. The only equine posterior is the author of this screed. I'll exempt you from that label even though your self-importance probably warrants it ... but I am not looking for reasons to be offended.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by mordant

It is far more likely to give him pause than to leave it in the shadows where the coward wants it, exempt from rational scrutiny or public shame.

Nothing causes a fanatic to "give pause", I should think this person delighted that you took some private proselytizing and gave it a wide audience.

Sorry, mordant, but you made the wrong decision here. That stuff belonged in the shadows and you have given it light it would otherwise have never seen.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Nothing causes a fanatic to "give pause", I should think this person delighted that you took some private proselytizing and gave it a wide audience.

Sorry, mordant, but you made the wrong decision here. That stuff belonged in the shadows and you have given it light it would otherwise have never seen.

I don't have any illusions about this guy specifically, but generally speaking the only reason this kind of nonsense can continue is because it gets a free pass -- not just with unearned deference and respect, but by simply being unopposed. I don't allow this sort of thing to be covert. If Jangles didn't want it covert it wouldn't have been targeted privately. That tells me he saw it as harmful to his cause for general consumption. And I think he's right. At some level he knows there are people out there for whom this splash of cold water is an inducement to free thinking. He didn't want the ugliness of his sentiments on his public reputation.

You're free to disagree, of course. There's a fine line here, which I recognize ... don't make eye contact, don't encourage them. Appropriate for most mutterers and panhandlers, I suppose, and there are countless theist bloviations I ignore on these fora, I assure you. I crossed a line somewhere, though, where if I were verbally assaulted like this in meatspace (publicly or privately), I would not ignore or avoid it anymore in most circumstances. It is impertinent and self absorbed and people who do this should not be able to expect impunity -- or cover of darkness.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Nothing causes a fanatic to "give pause", I should think this person delighted that you took some private proselytizing and gave it a wide audience.

Sorry, mordant, but you made the wrong decision here. That stuff belonged in the shadows and you have given it light it would otherwise have never seen.

Nah, I have to disagree. The author went private for a reason, and even if we cannot discern immediately what that reason is, posting his message openly on the forum would have been a better method of gaining a wide audience than sending people a private message and hoping one of them repeats it on the public forums.

I do agree that nothing gives a fanatic a moment of pause - they just plow right on ahead and rarely stop to think of much else aside from their religion.

Originally Posted by mordant

1) It restates a position long since discredited with anyone who has deconverted, which is that if you obey god will bless you (and by implication, all cursed aspects of your existence have to do with disobedience). This fails to address the POE from anyone's perspective, much less a deconvert's, as you cannot ascribe anything close to 100% of human suffering to "sin", even allowing the concept of sin for sake of argument.

And this one paragraph has caused a lot of needless suffering the world over, but in this country specifically. This one paragraph is the -root- cause of not having universal health care or a welfare system that actually works. It's that old fashioned Puritan-Protestant work ethic that boils down to, "If you don't work, you don't eat," and the reasons for not working aren't important.

Thus, if you're poor or disabled, somehow, it's YOUR fault. It was your sinful ways that landed you in that position and your disability and destitution are punishments from the Lawd! Up until FDR, this mentality fueled the harshness of county poorhouses - if you're poor, you are being punished for the sin of sloth; if you're old and have no money, you're being punished for not having lots of kids to take care of you; if you're disabled then you did something to displease God.

For many, though, I think the religious aspect of government welfare policies has been all but forgotten, but the contempt for the poor, elderly, and disabled remains the same. There is still a sense of society wanting to punish you somehow, as in my case, punishing me for being disabled. The whole process really does feel like a punishment, and society itself is wont to judge you. If you pull out a food stamp card, the smiles vanish and suddenly those next to you will scan your cart to make sure you only have approved groceries in there. And even if you're disabled, having even the smallest luxury is cause enough to go ballistic. How dare you have a cell phone!! Unless you're sleeping on a mattress on the floor of your empty one-room apartment (you might be allowed a chair or two), you're living much too well on the taxpayer's dime.

And much of this resentment, this judgmentalism, and even the hatred of the less fortunate comes from that very old Puritanical-Protestant worldview, one that has hobbled this nation and kept it from taking care of our society's most vulnerable.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by mordant

My anti-testimony appears to have struck a nerve with someone who is hiding behind the handle, "Mr Jangles". Here is a private message I received today:

This is a window into the twisted dark uncompassionate heart of fundamentalism (admittedly in this case, the charismatic department thereof, as many fundamentalists deny prophetic utterance as a modern day "gift of the holy spirit" and the NT doesn't even define what such a gift consists of or would look like).

.......

I received the same, reported it and had a positive response from the moderators.

He shows as a new member, but I have strong suspicions it is an existing member. As moderator on a different large board, I have tools to trace that beyond only IP numbers. I can only assume the moderators here have those same tools available

[TroutDude]

He sent it to me too. I ignored it.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Nothing causes a fanatic to "give pause", I should think this person delighted that you took some private proselytizing and gave it a wide audience.

Sorry, mordant, but you made the wrong decision here. That stuff belonged in the shadows and you have given it light it would otherwise have never seen.

I suspected, but did not know, that I was not the only one to get that message.

I'm glad to see my suspicions were correct. How else other than "outing" the philosophically deranged would we know?

[Shirina]

I didn't get the message *pout*

Maybe I'm not militant enough heh heh ... or maybe he thinks I'm too far gone and hell is a foregone conclusion.