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It's astonishing how much quarrelling there is over the definition of atheism, and how much confusion there is over the definition of agnosticism and the part it plays in addressing the god -claim.
I don't see it as adding anything useful to the matter to call them wimp-out or chicken fart definitions -whichever ones they applied to (you didn't give them). Because too often what is presented as a courageous and uncompromising belief -stance is actually closed -minded and intransigent.
One of my favourite quotes is Charlie Brown's "Stand up for your right to be wishy -washy". One of the more common and image - damaging habits of theists of all stripes is to make plonking faith claims and insist they be accepted as fact. It is also pretty common to dump deprecatory epithets on those who decline to do so.
Both are a particularly noticeable bad habit of yours.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-11-2016 at 05:15 AM..
The REAL definitions. The wimp-out chicken fart definitions.
What am i if I subscribe to all 4 of those statements? A courageous wimp?
Because in my view, attempting to gain knowledge of a subject is the best way to find the truth of it. And when there actually is no knowledge to be found, and alas all we find are subjective perceptions and poorly reasoned explanations which conflict with the knowledge we do have on other subjects....my reaction is to disbelieve it and operate as if it weren't true.
I can't say I have no belief-position on it....I do in fact have a belief-position....a lack of belief. I haven't been compelled to believe in the concepts of god(s) that I've heard. But I recognize that new knowledge is possible (even if I think it unlikely) which could change my mind.
The REAL definitions. The wimp-out chicken fart definitions.
Well, I appreciate your opinion. Just make sure your acknowledge that a rather large population of atheists hold to the "lack of belief" view rather than a "belief in a lack of" view.
Well, I appreciate your opinion. Just make sure your acknowledge that a rather large population of atheists hold to the "lack of belief" view rather than a "belief in a lack of" view.
And since aGNOSTICism has to do with knowledge and not belief, it's not a "belief that nothing is known or can be known about the existence of a god or gods". It is simply a knowledge claim ... of certain knowledge in the case of a gnostic and no knowledge in the case of an agnostic.
It is not my fault that even in little ways like this, people exhibit sloppy thinking about what the words actually mean.
They mean what they mean -- not what someone wants to force them to mean. Theists (and obviously as we can see here with Mystic, not even necessarily inerrantist / fundamentalist / literalist / conservative theists) nearly always want to mischaracterize atheism as a knowledge claim with as much certitude and arrogance and venom behind it as possible. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't claim knowledge concerning unfalsifiable propositions. No one legitimately can. That is why I'm not a theist -- being as how theists generally make a positive knowledge claim that their god exists, despite there being no way to (dis)prove such a claim.
And since aGNOSTICism has to do with knowledge and not belief, it's not a "belief that nothing is known or can be known about the existence of a god or gods". It is simply a knowledge claim ... of certain knowledge in the case of a gnostic and no knowledge in the case of an agnostic.
It is not my fault that even in little ways like this, people exhibit sloppy thinking about what the words actually mean.
They mean what they mean -- not what someone wants to force them to mean. Theists (and obviously as we can see here with Mystic, not even necessarily inerrantist / fundamentalist / literalist / conservative theists) nearly always want to mischaracterize atheism as a knowledge claim with as much certitude and arrogance and venom behind it as possible. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't claim knowledge concerning unfalsifiable propositions. No one legitimately can. That is why I'm not a theist -- being as how theists generally make a positive knowledge claim that their god exists, despite there being no way to (dis)prove such a claim.
An agnostic person believes that they know that nothing is known or can be known. The meaning of what I said doesn't change. Knowledge claims imply justified belief. Therefore it is entirely correct to say that an agnostic person BELIEVES that nothing is known or can be known. They believe the knowledge claim that agnosticism puts forward.
An agnostic person believes that they know that nothing is known or can be known. The meaning of what I said doesn't change. Knowledge claims imply justified belief. Therefore it is entirely correct to say that an agnostic person BELIEVES that nothing is known or can be known. They believe the knowledge claim that agnosticism puts forward.
It would be an acceptable semantic shortcut in almost any other setting, but we have to repeat the difference between belief claims and knowledge claims so often in this space that I can't recommend the use of the world "believe" or "belief" in connection with definitions of (a)gnostic truth claims.
It is not that I really even care that much about whether (a)gnosticism is considered a belief, the real problem is the flip side, where atheism is considered a knowledge claim, thus allowing theists to claim we are "arrogant" and making a claim that would be illogical and unsupportable to make -- were we actually making it.
It would be an acceptable semantic shortcut in almost any other setting, but we have to repeat the difference between belief claims and knowledge claims so often in this space that I can't recommend the use of the world "believe" or "belief" in connection with definitions of (a)gnostic truth claims.
It is not that I really even care that much about whether (a)gnosticism is considered a belief, the real problem is the flip side, where atheism is considered a knowledge claim, thus allowing theists to claim we are "arrogant" and making a claim that would be illogical and unsupportable to make -- were we actually making it.
It's not a semantic short cut. It's precisely correct.
You told me point blank that I was wrong about my definition and implied that I "exhibit sloppy thinking" in regards to my understanding of the terms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
It is not my fault that even in little ways like this, people exhibit sloppy thinking about what the words actually mean.
If you're going to tell me I'm wrong when you're aware that my definition is correct, then it IS your fault that people "exhibit sloppy thinking".
But, now that I've got that out of my system, in regards to your concern with confusing belief and knowledge I don't think this is the real issue. I think the real issue is that a lot of the vocal theists on these boards are quite happy to not acknowledge what atheism is or means. If you call yourself an atheist than immediately you are making the arrogant claim that you KNOW there is not a God (or gods.) Which is then impossible to explain away and the conversation is derailed.
I would propose that the problem isn't theists misunderstanding knowledge claims; it is the lack of a willingness to find or agree upon common terms so that we can communicate effectively. What I find interesting is that if you call yourself an atheist, but theists disagree with your terminology; you can still express your definition of atheism in a conveniently little one-liner. At which point, why it matters what label you give it is beyond me.
Pretty sure mordant was referring to theists, and possibly Mystic specifically in this case, when mentioning sloppy thinking.
I could be mistaken myself, but that would be the reason he mentions that it's semantic among atheists, but not so much when conversing with theists.
Well, I apologize if I misinterpreted that.
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