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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
This is exactly why a creator MUST exist.
You may have that wish out of a fanasty that somehow a part of you will live forever, but the reality is you, I, our parents and our kids will all turn into wormfood when we die.
Want to do good? Live your life the best you can, be kind and generous to your fellow human beings, and stop letting the negatives taught by religion drag you down. Make your legacy what will live on, not a hope that you will enter a spirit world.
LOL! There really is no alternative to a creator, for our existence.
I know it feels like a really compelling argument - so compelling that you think of it as 'logical'. But it really isn't. It is an instinctive human ..compulsion.. rather than a preference, I'd call it, to believe that our life must have a purpose. But in fact there is no logical or even sensible reason to suppose that there is any more reason for us being here than for the mould on my fence. It just offends our pride to think that we are just here for no particular purpose (though there are reasons we came to be here, of course) and so we get emotional rejections of this idea and that is presented as 'Logical' (1).
And the emotional reaction has the accusation that those who don't believe in some divine meaning (a "Plan") must be filled with the appalled horror the believer feels at the idea that there isn't one and makes the false claim that we are sad, suicidal, with a dark life that has no meaning.
In fact it has as much or more meaning than that of many believers, because we can decide our meanings for ourselvesf rather than having some imaginary plan we have to follow, and one that it not such as commends itself to us, very much.
In fact a large number of believers put this Plan aside and get on with the meanings in life that are important to them (just as as we hellbent satanspawn do), and the "Plan" merely becomes a handy pick - me - up to lift spirits when things get a bit fraught: "God has it all in hand; God will see me ok."
I don't want that any more than I want a divine Plan imposed, because I'd hate to be in the position of trying to explain it when God doesn't look after me. Let alone switching the mind off and just In God We Trusting.
The double-edged joke about God sending the helicopter rescue (sometimes a boat) applies here. We live our lives in a mundane way but believers give God the credit when things go right and blame man or just say "It must make sense to God,if not to us...all part of the Plan" when they don't.
We Goddless bastards watch and can't really LOL! as you do above (though with more Logical reason to) because it is just too sad.
(1) there's all sorts of projection that goes on, iike the emotional rejection of the rational idea that there doesn't have to be a reason projected onto atheism as an "emotional" rejection of the God -claim as fear of judgement, wanting to lead a sinful life (and rummaging around for evidence of that) or just the "God -phobia" (which just the miserable "You hate God" accusation dressed up in Psycho-jargon to look good) accusation, leading to the hostility, contempt, unfairness and unintentional (no doubt) malice we encounter in discussion. But it is all too tiresome and wearying to go into here.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-02-2016 at 04:39 AM..
Reason: a crying need for it.
Has nothing to do with emotions. A creator is the only logical choice for our existence.
On what basis do you make this claim? From what you've said in the past, it is based, not on logic, but on your own incredulity and inability to imagine a life without god. Which is an entirely emotional response.
You also said that the OP's sadness is exactly why god is needed, implying that happiness comes only from god. Also an entirely emotional consideration.
So ... do regale us with your entirely logical and unemotional argument for god, if you have one.
I know it feels like a really compelling argument - so compelling that you think of it as 'logical'. But it really isn't. It is an instinctive human ..compulsion.. rather than a preference, I'd call it, to believe that our life must have a purpose. But in fact there is no logical or even sensible reason to suppose that there is any more reason for us being here than for the mould on my fence. It just offends our pride to think that we are just here for no particular purpose (though there are reasons we came to be here, of course) and so we get emotional rejections of this idea and that is presented as 'Logical' (1).
And the emotional reaction has the accusation that those who don't believe in some divine meaning (a "Plan") must be filled with the appalled horror the believer feels at the idea that there isn't one and makes the false claim that we are sad, suicidal, with a dark life that has no meaning.
In fact it has as much or more meaning than that of many believers, because we can decide our meanings for ourselvesf rather than having some imaginary plan we have to follow, and one that it not such as commends itself to us, very much.
In fact a large number of believers put this Plan aside and get on with the meanings in life that are important to them (just as as we hellbent satanspawn do), and the "Plan" merely becomes a handy pick - me - up to lift spirits when things get a bit fraught: "God has it all in hand; God will see me ok."
I don't want that any more than I want a divine Plan imposed, because I'd hate to be in the position of trying to explain it when God doesn't look after me. Let alone switching the mind off and just In God We Trusting.
The double-edged joke about God sending the helicopter rescue (sometimes a boat) applies here. We live our lives in a mundane way but believers give God the credit when things go right and blame man or just say "It must make sense to God,if not to us...all part of the Plan" when they don't.
We Goddless bastards watch and can't really LOL! as you do above (though with more Logical reason to) because it is just too sad.
(1) there's all sorts of projection that goes on, iike the emotional rejection of the rational idea that there doesn't have to be a reason projected onto atheism as an "emotional" rejection of the God -claim as fear of judgement, wanting to lead a sinful life (and rummaging around for evidence of that) or just the "God -phobia" (which just the miserable "You hate God" accusation dressed up in Psycho-jargon to look good) accusation, leading to the hostility, contempt, unfairness and unintentional (no doubt) malice we encounter in discussion. But it is all too tiresome and wearying to go into here.
On what basis do you make this claim? From what you've said in the past, it is based, not on logic, but on your own incredulity and inability to imagine a life without god. Which is an entirely emotional response.
You also said that the OP's sadness is exactly why god is needed, implying that happiness comes only from god. Also an entirely emotional consideration.
So ... do regale us with your entirely logical and unemotional argument for god, if you have one.
Sadness has nothing to do with it. The fact that it doesn't make sense to the OP is that it's not logical (no creator/afterlife/etc.)
The idea of a god is delusional and superstitious, in the same category as Santa Claus and the tooth fairy except god is fantasy for many adults. There is no evidence whatsoever. I'm a former Christian so I have seen both sides. I suggest that you explore a side you obviously never thought about.
You came up with this theory by default, void of any science or reason, and without an independent thought.
The idea of a creator (of some sort) is the only logical conclusion to life/universe/all we see and know. Science can tell us how, but can't give us a source.
Because I don't know and nobody knows. It might a divine being, it might be natural forces. That isn't the point. What is the point is that - even if it is natural forces and we are here without any other reason for our existence, it does not make any difference to the meaning we have in our lives.
So, effectively, meaning in our lives is no valid reason to argue that we must have had a creator that intended us to be here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Well, I was not referring to just human existence, but rather the universe/life/all we see and know.
The same thing applies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Sadness has nothing to do with it. The fact that it doesn't make sense to the OP is that it's not logical (no creator/afterlife/etc.)
I'm not sure whether the OP was arguing that there is no Plan (and that is sad) or that it is sad that there is no plan and therefore, there must be one
Either way, meaning in our lives is no valid argument for a Creator with a plan (there might be an origin for everything with no plan), and when you examine it, neither is an afterlife.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
The idea of a creator (of some sort) is the only logical conclusion to life/universe/all we see and know. Science can tell us how, but can't give us a source.
Nobody can, with any credibility. To claim some creative being with a Plan is not so much a logically valid suggestion, but a plugging of a gap in our knowledge with a familiar idea to humans (people make things) inflated to divine size. In fact there is circumstantial evidence that argues against an intelligent creator, so natural origins (and we han hardly even guess what they might be) is logically the better explanation.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-02-2016 at 02:39 PM..
Because I don't know and nobody knows. It might a divine being, it might be natural forces. That isn't the point. What is the point is that - even if it is natural forces and we are here without any other reason for our existence, it does not make any difference to the meaning we have in our lives.
So, effectively, meaning in our lives is no valid reason to argue that we must have had a creator that intended us to be here.
The same thing applies.
I'm not sure whether the OP was arguing that there is no Plan (and that is sad) or that it is sad that there is no plan and therefore, there must be one
Either way, meaning in our lives is no valid argument for a Creator with a plan (there might be an origin for everything with no plan), and when you examine it, neither is an afterlife.
Nobody can, with any credibility. To claim some creative being with a Plan is not so much a logically valid suggestion, but a plugging of a gap in our knowledge with a familiar idea to humans (people make things) inflated to divine size. In fact there is circumstantial evidence that argues against an intelligent creator, so natural origins (and we han hardly even guess what they might be) is logically the better explanation.
So, a creator remains the only logical choice.
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