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I thought I mistakenly went to the book forum. And now art?
The connection here to atheism ?
Most of these threads meander off topic. But the connection is Russell and language.
Actually, I lost my train of thought. Not coffeed up yet this morning. What I object to is saying Hemingway had the courage to shoot himself. Matt wrote:
>> (And all these years later I have some respect for Hemingway knowing the rough contours of how he lived and died, an alcoholic atheist who had the courage to pull the trigger)
I think it takes a lot more courage to continue to live, even though you feel like shooting yourself. Too many people--men, in particular --actually carry through with this and I think it's irresponsible to present it as a courageous option.
Most of these threads meander off topic. But the connection is Russell and language.
Actually, I lost my train of thought. Not coffeed up yet this morning. What I object to is saying Hemingway had the courage to shoot himself. Matt wrote:
>> (And all these years later I have some respect for Hemingway knowing the rough contours of how he lived and died, an alcoholic atheist who had the courage to pull the trigger)
I think it takes a lot more courage to continue to live, even though you feel like shooting yourself. Too many people--men, in particular --actually carry through with this and I think it's irresponsible to present it as a courageous option.
I don't particularly see it as a question of courage vs cowardice. Everyone gets to decide if they want to have more experiences or not. Part of that calculus is who else depends on you and how it will effect them. But no one can dictate quality of life assessments for others and no one should second-guess them.
In the case for example of someone with an incurable / untreatable disease like ALS, living is beyond a certain point experiencing a terrifying and demeaning end while in some cases consuming the family fortunes, making it harder for survivors to carry on. In a situation like that to maintain my dignity and the integrity of my family I might well make the call that I want to hang it up. That is my choice to make, just like it's a woman's choice whether or not to have an abortion.
I don't particularly see it as a question of courage vs cowardice. Everyone gets to decide if they want to have more experiences or not. Part of that calculus is who else depends on you and how it will effect them. But no one can dictate quality of life assessments for others and no one should second-guess them.
In the case for example of someone with an incurable / untreatable disease like ALS, living is beyond a certain point experiencing a terrifying and demeaning end while in some cases consuming the family fortunes, making it harder for survivors to carry on. In a situation like that to maintain my dignity and the integrity of my family I might well make the call that I want to hang it up. That is my choice to make, just like it's a woman's choice whether or not to have an abortion.
I guess some debilitating illness like ALS would be one thing, but just being aggravated or depressed, or alcoholic, it seems like there are alternatives to suicide. I kind of do take that position and when I do, I get in trouble; I'm told I must not know anything about depression. But nothing could be further from the truth, to be honest.
But living in pain may take more courage than ending your life.
Now that this is way off topic I wouldn't be surprised if my post gets deleted. Still I'd like this opportunity to quote David Foster Wallace:
Quote:
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
Last edited by Itzpapalotl; 05-25-2019 at 04:37 AM..
Now that this is way off topic I wouldn't be surprised if my post gets deleted. Still I'd like this opportunity to quote David Foster Wallace:
that is amazing quote.
I will now incorporate that analogy. "flames or jumping." two very bad choices. But to the person on the ground, there is no flames. so "hang on" seems reasonable.
How does mother nature (evolution) handle the occurrence that a population is out of equilibrium? List the possible ways? she will use one, if not all, of them.
I guess some debilitating illness like ALS would be one thing, but just being aggravated or depressed, or alcoholic, it seems like there are alternatives to suicide. I kind of do take that position and when I do, I get in trouble; I'm told I must not know anything about depression. But nothing could be further from the truth, to be honest.
But living in pain may take more courage than ending your life.
I agree there are scenarios where that may be so.
In places where rational suicide is a more supported option than in most places, like the Netherlands or Switzerland, there have been cases where people with major depression have been allowed / assisted to end their lives. But this is well beyond what most people experience as depression. These were cases of terrible childhood abuse, and of resulting terrible mental illness and torment well beyond the reach of all known therapies, which had all been exhausted. I do not consider those hard cases to be representative of cowardice. There are times when carrying on is just masochistic and pointless, for the person, and for anyone involved with them.
I would say that every decision each of us makes is a mixture of courage, cowardice, self sacrifice, self interest, nobility and banality. It isn't a simple question, 99% of the time. So when it comes to stuff like this, particularly when I don't know the person, I feel it best to not assume too much -- or much at all. People live -- and die -- by their own decisions and so long as they own them, that is the way it should be.
I probably sound judgemental but my thing is based on regretting that people I like made that choice.
That's a normal and perfectly valid reaction. But some things are simply beyond of our control and it helps to recognise it. One doesn't have to accept it, just recognise it.
I probably sound judgemental but my thing is based on regretting that people I like made that choice.
I understand. And in keeping with my expressed views -- I didn't assume you were being judgmental ;-)
My son was an example of what I'd call a "tangential suicide" -- his death was a knock-on effect of several forms of self-neglect and careless behaviors. I regret that he made those choices that ended his life at age 30. So I know the feeling. Even though he didn't specifically plan to die in the middle of his work shift so I know it wasn't an intentional suicide, or even really a suicide -- as the person who loved him most, I regret every way to Sunday that he didn't make more self aware and considerate choices, for his benefit and mine.
Still, he had a personality disorder with a terrible prognosis and there was no rational expectation that his quality of life was going to do anything but gradually deteriorate. Faced with such prospects, would I have been "phoning it in"? Probably. So I understand, even as I regret it.
Now that this is way off topic I wouldn't be surprised if my post gets deleted. Still I'd like this opportunity to quote David Foster Wallace:
Interesting quote, made all the more interesting by the fact that Wallace himself eventually committed suicide.
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