That "something else" which is not god (Savior, believe, delusion)
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Consciousness is not a substrate. It’s an attribute of a working human brain. Some also attribute it to other higher animals in a limited form. Stop Godifying it. It’s nothing special. It’s just an attribute.
It is strange that you consider yourself "just an attribute." You clearly have not engaged in rigorous introspection about your own essence. Sad.
It is strange that you consider yourself "just an attribute." You clearly have not engaged in rigorous introspection about your own essence. Sad.
And “rigorous introspection” had led you on an emotional flight of fancy where you deify a simple attribute of higher animals. You have existence, you have conditions where life can form, then evolve. Over time and evolution, one of many attributes that naturally occurs is intelligence. It is present in man primarily, and to a lesser extent is some number of other species. It’s not God, it’s a simple characteristic, a capability, a capacity, an attribute. Your introspection is not yielding rational output. You are deifying intelligence out of some misbegotten notion that because you don’t see intelligence in rocks, it must be God. It’s not God. Reality is not god. It just is. And within it is stars and black holes and non-living things and living things. And the non-living things possess attributes, and so do the living things. It’s just what it is. Nothing more and nothing less. For you to go God-God that we possess intelligence is baffling. Introspect less. Extrospect more. You’ve lost your intellectual balance.
You asked why I consider us special but when I answer you dismiss it as irrelevant. Consciousness is the substrate for personhood or BEING so if our Reality IS conscious, it is a BEING.
IF.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The idea that it is comprised of components (individual "cells") that exhibit consciousness supports the idea that the substrate of our Reality IS consciousness.
We are conscious, therefore the universe must be?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
How do I know that this is true? Personal experience. How would you know? You have to consider the entirety of Reality as a single entity composed of myriad components, not all of which possess consciousness, much as we ourselves are composed of myriad cells and biota that do not have our consciousness.
Just as we ourselves are composed of myriad cells and biota that do not sweat does not mean our reality perspires.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That is the "explanation that makes the most sense, seems best justified with the evidence at hand" as the basis for my preference. What is yours?
the more that someone uses the phrase "bull feces" or "bull fecal" in their posts,
then the less rational and logical and intelligent those posts become.
Just as we ourselves are composed of myriad cells and biota that do not sweat does not mean our reality perspires.
Not using fallacies.
Sussed. Every poster who engages with Mystic (unless the kneejerk approver of anyone pro God -belief or at least anti -atheist) sees the essential vapidity of all Mystic's arguments as based purely on faith that his own 'experiences' are not delusional.
Getting to know the crafty but still irrational methods used to try to screw a win any way it can be done including (rather too readily) sneering at an deprecating the opponent (the twisting of 'Love' into what looks very much like loathing is as familiar as the lawyer tricks used to try to wangle points in the generality of Theist apologetic posting).
This must look like I've been doing a lot of finger -pointing lately, but Jimminy Chriistmas, there's been so much cheating by the theist apologetics crowd recently that pointing up the fallacies used (which is not the same as attacking the person using them) has become more than half the posting needed.
Consciousness is not a substrate. It’s an attribute of a working human brain. Some also attribute it to other higher animals in a limited form. Stop Godifying it. It’s nothing special. It’s just an attribute.
This is best answer and demonstrates the disconnect perfectly.
He call the universe and its workings god. And we don't. I personally have no problem with the word god past him telling me that it controls us. Why? does the universe control us? The answer is clearly yes and no depending on what we are talking about.
he uses the word god. and he most certifiably uses correct science in supporting much of what he says. Yeah, truth be told, he has some gaps. But who doesn't? certifiably not the deny everything type.
all the other posts have only showed us that the word "god" doesn't have to be applied. And, quite frankly, they did a good job at that stance. We do not have to call it god. They haven't demonstrated where mystic is wrong past "why godify it?
marc, what word or notion do you have that best sums up how the universe seems to work and our place in it? I was asked to sum it up in a sentence, can you sum up your position in a few sentences so that we can have a look see at your position? and compare it some other claims? you know, to see what ones might be more valid?
True again our ability to formulate and ask such questions is extraordinary, but this again does not prove anything in the way of answers. In fact, our extraordinary ability along these lines has also demonstrated how extraordinary is our ability to misunderstand, misinterpret and answer such questions with extraordinarily wrong answers.
Here too I think your logic is flawed in that you are confusing what is impressive about us as proof of a God. Dinosaurs were impressively large, extraordinarily so, long before we came along. Does this prove a God? Just about all life forms have unique extraordinary capabilities while it also seems there are countless stars and planets with no life forms. How does any of that prove a God? How or why is consciousness "a very definition of God?" There is all around us that has no consciousness, yet all inanimate objects are as much a part of our reality as we are, and have been around long before we appeared on the scene.
Was there no God before we with consciousness came to be then?
Certainly not a question of how we "prefer" to explain what we don't understand in any case. It is a question of what explanation makes the most sense, seems best justified with the evidence at hand. Again that we are special or that anything else in the universe is special far as we are concerned in no ways proves there is a God. Simply proves we are special, unique, just like so much else in the universe. A rather subjective perspective as well I might add, and why it seems we imagine that God made us in Her image. Subjective and a bit self-centered as we humans have always been going back to when the Sun and the universe revolved around us. Again, WRONG!
yeah, you make good points.
"was there a god before humans?" was there a universe before humans? was there a human description of the universe before humans?
I think we seprate from mystic at "godify-ing it". He makes good points and his logic is fairly sound.
I asked marc to sum up the universe in a few thoughts. Can you? so we can evaluate your position? Like we do mystics?
Thoughtfully reasoned and well presented. A thought which struck me concerning a creator who created to amuse itself, was ...why would such an entity be interested in us? What could we possibly do or say that would compel the attention of some entity capable of creating and operating an entire universe? Did this creator get its jollies watching a hundred million years of dinosaurs battling one another and dominating all the rest? Hell, I was bored with the Jurassic Park films after the first two and haven't seen any of the others. What an extraordinary conceit it is to assume that such a creator cares at all about whether or not Sarah gets elected to the school board or Jason makes the varsity at his Jr. College.
We now know that there are billions of stars in immensely distant galaxies which are far, far older than our sun. It would seem probable that civilizations which developed on any of those potential worlds would be way more advanced than we. If the creator wants to be a voyeur, I would think that those more advanced civilizations would have a much better shot at being interesting to any creator than ourselves.
Thank you, but I found the Jurassic Park movies entertaining. I'm probably an easy mark that way however...
The fact that dinosaurs came and went long before we humans is also fascinating, and for some inexplicable reason not mentioned in the Bible. I would think at least a full chapter on that subject would have been included, maybe beginning with the story of Adamasaurus and Everaptor, but no.
True as well how boring we must be compared to all going on in the universe since the beginning. Especially the beginning. I mean talk about a wild show! The vast majority without hardly a cameo appearance by us humans.
That's a very good point and not one that's ever entered my mind.
If it's been brought up on here before, I, for one, have missed it, so extra credit to you from me.
Of course (In an attempt to excuse my deficient thought processes) I hadn't before encountered the ideas that Mystic promotes)Is my ego showing??
Had to pick myself off the floor and get back up onto my chair after reading this comment...
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