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Saw this on the bird site just now, posted by Jemar Tisby, PhD, and it struck me as one of the truer things I've heard of late:
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Someone who is not Christian described their general experience with white evangelicals as "people who don't have any questions." I immediately knew what they meant, and I'm going to be thinking about that statement a long time.
I mean, if you seriously think you have the true milk of god's holy word, you are very sure of yourself, and of your rightness, and by extension, the utter wrongness of one and all who don't agree wholeheartedly with you.
One cannot imagine that they have all the answers, and then have any questions. And that is fundamentalist Christianity in a nutshell.
Agreed. And if you do you better not say anything or you'll appear "spiritually weak". Doubt your doubts.
Yup. We were all about certitude. If you couldn't be absolutely certain then what was the point, right?
Conservative mindsets are very different -- depending to an extent on what exactly you're trying to "conserve". What we were wanting to conserve (or more accurately really, will into existence) was simple black and white answers to the thorniest problems in life. We were constantly irritated by inconvenient facts, and so tended to discount, deny or deflect them from our awareness. In a sense we were trying to live a simplified version of Real Life (tm) that we felt "ought" to be the way things were "supposed" to be. No thorny moral questions, no lack of easy answers for every problem, no great mysteries (apart from god's "mysterious ways", which are not allowed to be questioned and are not even knowable anyway).
I guess that's why this observation struck me. We really WERE "people with no questions". But at the time I did not realize what a bereft and minimal existence that was. Learning to ask questions was one of the great joys of coming out of that existence. Well re-learning really, since every child knows how to ask questions, as nauseam.
Many years ago when I was teaching earth science in Virginia, we had finished with the Earth History unit (in the state's curriculum), I gave an essay test at the end. Students could either write "Why I Believe in Evolution" OR "Why I Don't Believe In Evolution". If they made an effort to show they had thought about the topic, regardless of what their decision was, they got an A. That was the year I had several complaints from religious parents, three of whom literally said, "I don't want my son to think".
Saw this on the bird site just now, posted by Jemar Tisby, PhD, and it struck me as one of the truer things I've heard of late:
I mean, if you seriously think you have the true milk of god's holy word, you are very sure of yourself, and of your rightness, and by extension, the utter wrongness of one and all who don't agree wholeheartedly with you.
One cannot imagine that they have all the answers, and then have any questions. And that is fundamentalist Christianity in a nutshell.
Agree also. I found out the hard way in that other thread in the R&S that not only do they NOT have questions, they start throwing the dishes and pots & pans at you. How dare we question their authority! It's a good thing stoning is against the law now.
Yup. We were all about certitude. If you couldn't be absolutely certain then what was the point, right?
Conservative mindsets are very different -- depending to an extent on what exactly you're trying to "conserve". What we were wanting to conserve (or more accurately really, will into existence) was simple black and white answers to the thorniest problems in life. We were constantly irritated by inconvenient facts, and so tended to discount, deny or deflect them from our awareness. In a sense we were trying to live a simplified version of Real Life (tm) that we felt "ought" to be the way things were "supposed" to be. No thorny moral questions, no lack of easy answers for every problem, no great mysteries (apart from god's "mysterious ways", which are not allowed to be questioned and are not even knowable anyway).
I guess that's why this observation struck me. We really WERE "people with no questions". But at the time I did not realize what a bereft and minimal existence that was. Learning to ask questions was one of the great joys of coming out of that existence. Well re-learning really, since every child knows how to ask questions, as nauseam.
May the questions never cease!
Yes, exactly to the bolded. A great joy and I'm still asking. I probably always will be. LOL I like that, "will into existence" is a good way to describe the Christian mindset. They are trying to "will" everything into existence. Those "mysterious ways" are a bunch of horse hockey for 'believe no matter how ridiculous it sounds or else burn in hell' mentality. Yes, I was one of those without questions also.
Yes, exactly to the bolded. A great joy and I'm still asking. I probably always will be. LOL I like that, "will into existence" is a good way to describe the Christian mindset. They are trying to "will" everything into existence. Those "mysterious ways" are a bunch of horse hockey for 'believe no matter how ridiculous it sounds or else burn in hell' mentality. Yes, I was one of those without questions also.
You do seem even more suited to freethinking than I am. My approach to it is more that I want to get out in front of whatever the next outrage is, as I don't like surprises. Yours seems more positive, lol. It must have been REALLY unnatural for you in that fundie mindset.
Another way I look at that old mindset is through the lens of idealism. Fundamentalism is idealism on steroids. To them, the real, as opposed to the apparent, reality of life is that things are fantastically perfect: a benign, loving god ready to "open the windows of heaven" and smite your enemies; an open-ended afterlife where every tear will be wiped away and all the ineffable finally explained; a happy transcendent marriage as long as you marry someone in-group and are both committed to it. And for some sub-sects, this idealism is even to the extreme of self-created health and wealth just by thinking it into existence. Sort of like the book, The Secret, but with theological explanations.
And yes there are speed bumps, but no cliffs to fall off of, either. There are tests, but not on the scale of poor old Job, since Satan's wager with god on the basic question of why people follow Him is already settled.
Because of this my expectations of life were WILDLY unrealistic. And a much-needed correction in my expectations has brought, ironically, the peace that Christianity originally promised me. Who knew!
You do seem even more suited to freethinking than I am. My approach to it is more that I want to get out in front of whatever the next outrage is, as I don't like surprises. Yours seems more positive, lol. It must have been REALLY unnatural for you in that fundie mindset.
Oh my dog, you're not kidding. I didn't believe one thing I was saying, but I was saying it because it's all I knew. It took me a long time to be positive about anything. I never knew I was free-thinker until I came to CD. I can credit this website and the people in the R&S and A&A for helping me down from that soap box. You're doing a fine job of staying on top of things, I'm always surprised.
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Another way I look at that old mindset is through the lens of idealism. Fundamentalism is idealism on steroids. To them, the real, as opposed to the apparent, reality of life is that things are fantastically perfect: a benign, loving god ready to "open the windows of heaven" and smite your enemies; an open-ended afterlife where every tear will be wiped away and all the ineffable finally explained; a happy transcendent marriage as long as you marry someone in-group and are both committed to it. And for some sub-sects, this idealism is even to the extreme of self-created health and wealth just by thinking it into existence. Sort of like the book, The Secret, but with theological explanations.
Haha yes it is. It is an ideal scenario, if only it were true. I can't keep doing thisbecause for one thing it hurts, and doesn't relieve any of the frustrations with Christians and their idealism. I still can't get over how brainwashed I was and confused. It's funny how I didn't recognize what a hoax Christianity is until someone gently said "take a look again" and I did. I don't really know how to explain it except that one minute I was insane, and the next I wasn't. It's lovely being in a country where all religions are supposedly accepted. But what about the atheists and agnostics? It seems to me the only "accepted" religion is Christianity and the rest is just lip service.
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And yes there are speed bumps, but no cliffs to fall off of, either. There are tests, but not on the scale of poor old Job, since Satan's wager with god on the basic question of why people follow Him is already settled.
Poor Job is right. What a spiteful and hate-filled god that Christians worship. It's an odd story.
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Because of this my expectations of life were WILDLY unrealistic. And a much-needed correction in my expectations has brought, ironically, the peace that Christianity originally promised me. Who knew!
LOL me too. I just knew if I was the perfect Christian, then ALL my prayers would be answered, even the one to win the lottery. Shhh, gambling wasn't allowed. It's delusional to think some magic sky fairy person is going to give you whatever you ask for if you don't sin. Ugh, I wish I could get back most of my life so I could have had years to learn about things other than Fundamentalism. I am much happier as an atheist, like you said. Promises, promises. I'd rather live in reality.
Agree also. I found out the hard way in that other thread in the R&S that not only do they NOT have questions, they start throwing the dishes and pots & pans at you. How dare we question their authority! It's a good thing stoning is against the law now.
I don't think the cookware was coming at you from evangelicals. It seemed to be a Hindu, a Hasidic Jew, and a Pantheist who were tag-teaming with the cast-iron frying pan.
I always encourage people of different religions to find their commonalities and work together, but that isn't what I really meant.
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