Does morality exist in the Atheist world? (preach, suicide, sin)

[primaltech]

Originally Posted by Northsouth

LOL please explain to the ones trying to stir up something over nothing, that the above is sarcasm. JFC. Unless you were serious, of course, then I'm right there with ya.

It's certainly closer to being true than the opposite, usual annoying claim. Yeah it's true that some religious people can sufficiently ignore their religion and holy text enough to be moral and decent people in spite of it. But religious people are in general less moral than atheists. And of course much more hypocritical, in regards to the discrepancy between the usual religionists' beliefs and their actual behavior.

We don't preach anything- therefore we don't have to practice what we preach. That fact alone makes most of us better people than 95% of the Christians I've encountered.

What you see is what you get, with us, typically. We're not hiding behind something. We don't have any crutch to lean on, or anything to excuse our behavior. And we can't get "saved".

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by primaltech

It's certainly closer to being true than the opposite, usual annoying claim. Yeah it's true that some religious people can sufficiently ignore their religion and holy text enough to be moral and decent people in spite of it. But religious people are in general less moral than atheists. And of course much more hypocritical, in regards to the discrepancy between the usual religionists' beliefs and their actual behavior. We don't preach anything- therefore we don't have to practice what we preach. That fact alone makes most of us better people than 95% of the Christians I've encountered.What you see is what you get, with us, typically. We're not hiding behind something. We don't have any crutch to lean on, or anything to excuse our behavior. And we can't get "saved".

view expressed in post above is another example of claiming atheists to be better than believers who are "less moral than atheists."

if it is "annoying" to hear the claim that atheists are less moral, then surely common sense dictates and recognizes it is just as "annoying" to hear the claim that believers are less moral. it is the exact same identical behavior, which is a vaunted boast of superiority, as proclaimed in post above extolling and regaling that atheists "makes most of us better people"


again i am pointing out complaining about a behavior ("annoying") and then engaging in the very same behavior. in my view that defies all rationale, common sense, basic reason, and logic. No matter what "moral code" a person may claim to possess have or follow.

[Northsouth]

Originally Posted by primaltech

It's certainly closer to being true than the opposite, usual annoying claim. Yeah it's true that some religious people can sufficiently ignore their religion and holy text enough to be moral and decent people in spite of it. But religious people are in general less moral than atheists. And of course much more hypocritical, in regards to the discrepancy between the usual religionists' beliefs and their actual behavior.

We don't preach anything- therefore we don't have to practice what we preach. That fact alone makes most of us better people than 95% of the Christians I've encountered.

What you see is what you get, with us, typically. We're not hiding behind something. We don't have any crutch to lean on, or anything to excuse our behavior. And we can't get "saved".

I beg to differ about the bolded, I have been and I still am. Atheist or not. According to the Southern Baptists. That's a very convenient loophole, the whole once saved, always saved thing. Takes care of everything. Sort of like confessional, but the forgiveness lasts forever. NO matter what you do.

Good post.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Cruithne

And what about killing other people during wartime? It's an act of defense you could say.

As George Carlin said ... most Christians are fine with murder if it's murdering the right person for the right reason and the murdering is done by the right, officially-sanctioned person (e.g., a cop or soldier).

In fairness ... I think I could say the same of most people. It's just that Christianity mostly doesn't seem to inform a substantively different view of such things.

[stanley-88888888]

Originally Posted by GoCardinals

If no,
How come many Atheists claim to have a moral code?

If yes,
Please provide your evidence to prove that morality exists.

If you don’t have an evidence but you still believe morality exists then please provide your rationale?

gandhi isnt very religious but i think he is very moral; also, catholic priests ar very devout but some of them ar responsible for tha most deplorable actions against humans in history.

[stanley-88888888]

Originally Posted by GoCardinals

really?
I don't think I had a mention of "religion" anywhere in the OP. Do you wanna try reading again?

It seems like you are reluctant to answer the question cuz you may feel it's a trap?

No, it's a simple basic question WITHOUT religion being involved.






Even though I did not mention religion, but are you saying, religious morality does not exist or religious people cannot have morality? Morality ONLY exist outside of religion?

But why are we attempting to derail the thread?

If you believe morality exists (regardless of outside the religion or not), please provide your evidence to prove it's existence?

If you don't have an evidence that morality exists, then please provide your rationale behind it? Is it a gut feeling? Is it a hunch? Is it a guess? Everyone else believes it exists, and you go with the flow?

i alwaze thot that atheism wuz a religion (did yoo meen to say agnostic) ?

[Andrew in Minnesota]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

perhaps then the salient point being made, is that a belief is held (in this case by oh atheists for example) without physical evidence for that belief. without physical evidence for that belief, dogma, preference, opinion, view.

There is nothing "obtuse" or "dishonest" or "playing games" about that, it is a valid observation.

There most certainly is. Specifically, there's the fact that for certain things that most certainly occur, physical evidence does not exist.

If someone likes chick flicks but hates horror, there is no physical evidence for that. Whatever you dream, you have no physical evidence of that. I have no physical evidence that I support the right of people to marry those of the same sex.

I made this exact point in the post to which you responded... and you obtusely pretended not to notice.

People have morality. Theists have morality. Atheists have morality. Theists claim, and indeed sometimes actually believe, that their moral is based on ancient books. But it generally is not, for reason I've already delineated. Reasons which people like you will obtusely pretend to have either not noticed or to not understand. Because you need to keep up that presense in order to prop up your flaccid fantasy that religion is necessary for morality.

[elyn02]

Originally Posted by GoCardinals

If no,
How come many Atheists claim to have a moral code?

If yes,
Please provide your evidence to prove that morality exists.

If you don’t have an evidence but you still believe morality exists then please provide your rationale?

Humans make observations. For example, somebody might say that I eat with my hands. These observations, or facts, are rarely left in isolation. If they are pointed out, it is meant to convey something about me. My behaviors are my morals. However, when atheists and morals are used in the same sentence, it is to determine whether or not atheists have good morals or if they are good people. To use my example again, Elyn eats with her hands. Therefore, she is unsophisticated. The first part is an observation. The second part is a preferred point of view. Another answer could have been provided such as that is part of Elyn's culture.

So what are you asking? Are you asking do atheists demonstrate a pattern of learned behavior? Obviously, yes. We have morals. Or are you asking if those morals are good? If so, then only you are in control of your opinion. But if you say they are not good, then I guess you have an answer to your question. If you can see the behavior and comment on it whether it is good morals or bad, then you have your evidence that it exists.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by Cruithne

It's not about being positive though, it's about being right or wrong.

As I said in a previous post, the death penalty is accepted actually by a majority of Americans.
The ones who accept it believe it to be the right thing to do. That's a moral position. The fact that the person on death row most likely killed someone justifies that person being legally killed by another person. I don't agree with capital punishment personally but many do.
In some countries public executions are still carried out by some governments.
Whichever way you swing it, death as a punishment is a moral position.

And what about killing other people during wartime? It's an act of defense you could say.

What about killing animals? Most people are carnivores.

I'm just demonstrating that 'do no harm' is not a universally accepted moral standard because it comes with a whole heap of caveats.

There as many reasons to deliberately take the life of someone ,Take a LIFE, as there are killers.
Life thiefs.

IMO, it is never " good "

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by GoCardinals

If no,
How come many Atheists claim to have a moral code?

If yes,
Please provide your evidence to prove that morality exists.

If you don’t have an evidence but you still believe morality exists then please provide your rationale?

I could literally write a book on this subject. Because, as it should be obvious to nearly everyone in this forum -- it IS the Atheist & Agnostic forum, after all -- is that Christian morality doesn't even offer any morality.

In other words, there is literally nothing that religious morality can offer humanity that can't be found from secular sources. What's superior about the secular sources? Well ... there isn't thousands of years of baggage born of bigotry, sexism and misogyny, prejudice, racism, hatred, and just plain ignorance and fear.

I can pretty much guarantee that everyone living in modern society today would NOT want to live under religious so-called morality. All of the morals that you hold dear -- beyond all the supernatural woo -- are born of secular sources for secular reasons.

Even our Constitutional Bill of Rights is purely secular. All of those things that protect us and our rights -- god doesn't do it. WE do. Because nearly every right we have is in contravention of Biblical law.

Freedom of religion? Give me a break. Freedom of speech? Not with blasphemy laws on the books. Freedom of expression? I don't know - why not ask people like Galileo or Geodano Bruno if they had any freedom of expression. And that's just the First Amendment.

Because I'm just totally confident that God wanted everyone to own an AR-15 with an extended clip. Right? Isn't that why the 2nd Amendment is so often defended in religious terms? God wants ..? God desires ...?

Where in the Bible does God tell everyone that we have a right to Due Process? A Speedy Trial? Where does God say we are to be protected from Cruel and Unusual Punishments? Especially when stoning people to death is his favorite pastime -- and that's pretty cruel and unusual. It's very painful and takes a long time to die. How about the right to vote ... in an era that was ruled entirely by kings and family lines of succession? God didn't seem to mind any of that -- and he let it continue for another few thousand years.

Where does God give us the right to a jury trial? Where does God protect us from discrimination due to gender, age, disability, ethnicity, and nationality? Where does God make slavery illegal? Where does God protect the rights of children?

And here's one of my favorites: if you're one of those guys who ... I don't know ... maybe you're just weird or socially backwards ... maybe you're just ugly as sin ... or you have no style or you lack confidence ... but you're one of those guys who just can't land a date. Especially from a truly hot chick. You know, those raving beauties that sizzle the eyes right out of your sockets when you see one!

Well ... according to the Bible, all you have to do is march yourself down to your local high school and find yourself one of those fine-looking fresh virgin hotties. Whoo! And you can pick exactly the kind you want. Blond, brunette, redhead ... white, black, Asian, Indian ... man, you name it. It's like a human smorgasbord at the high school. The only thing you have to worry about is competition. Because there will likely be a small horde of guys just like you -- and even some who could snag a girl the right way -- but are too lazy to go through all the courting. Better get your hottie now because supplies ARE limited.

(Am I being kind of ... eeew, here? Good. Because it IS eeew.)

Once you find yourself the hottie of your dreams, just walk right up to her, throw her on the ground, and rape her. But do it out in the open where everyone will see you. Because you WANT to get caught. Once you go through the trial process -- assuming there is one -- your punishment will be a $50 fine and now you HAVE to marry your victim. Yep. The female victim gets no say in the matter. At all. And now that hottie you've always wanted is yours. And she cannot leave you. All you have to do is make sure she's fed and clothed. You can beat her. You can order her around. And best of all -- you get to rape her again. And again. And again. For the rest of your natural born life. And you won't go to Hell for it, either, because that's God's law! You don't even have to apologize for the thousands of rapes you'll commit. In fact, if you have some money, you can rape several women and secure a collection of hottie sex slaves. You just need to pay $50 for each of them. Then you can just buy them crappy t-shirts and jeans from Dollar General and feed them Mac N Cheese.

Because that's religious morality for you. And I'm not at ALL exaggerating. Oh, just a word of advice. Make sure your hottie isn't married. Because if she's married, it's considered adultery on both your parts and you'll be executed. Even your victim. Especially if you stop her from screaming. If you want to rape a married woman, just make sure you club her until she's unconscious. Because she can't go to the authorities and claim rape if she didn't scream -- or she gets stoned to death, too, you see ... she end up complicit in your own crime. Isn't religious morality grand? Especially crimes against women. Often the female victims are punished more harshly than the men who commited the crime!

Again ... secular morality has always been the best form of morality. Of course it isn't perfect. Nothing drafted by fallible human beings will ever be perfect. But even the most imperfect set of secular laws is still far and away better than most religious laws.

And let's dispense with the 900lb. gorilla in the room.

When has anyone heard of an atheist group flying planes into a building shouting, "For science!" Keep in mind that "only" some 3.5K people were killed in that attack. But the terrorists were hoping to nail some 50,000 deaths. And they could've gotten that many, too, if they had crashed the planes into a lower floor later in the day. In any event -- how many times have you heard or seen a story about someone who detonated a suicide vest in a crowded airport or bus station or discoteque or wherever -- shouting "Science is Great!" or "Nothing is Great!" or "Nothing!" or "No reason I just felt like it!" before blowing themselves and hundreds of others sky high? No, I won't say all terrorism is due to religious extremism. But A LOT of it is ... and most of the extreme acts were born of religion in some way, shape or form.

Also ... do a comparison on the number of religious hate groups recognized as such by the Southern Poverty Law Center -- and then compare that number to how many atheist hate groups there are.

It's also interesting how -- whenever bad parenting is bad enough to actually make the news, there's almost always a religious component. Like: "I killed my children so they wouldn't have to live in a sinful world." Or. "I killed my kids to get them to Heaven faster." Or. "I killed my kids because they were possessed by demons!"

One also has to wonder why it is that massive pedophile rings orchestrated by priests and preachers wasn't enough to enrage American Christendom. But a gay couple wanting a wedding cake for some reason ... was.

I bring this up to point out how -- not only are religious laws often brutal, violent, and unfair -- but the actual WEIGHT of each so-called "crime" is woefully out of whack from mainstream moral systems. The fact that there was more outrage over people being gay than there was about a HUGE pedophile ring in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Erie here in Pennsylvania kinda shows you the value of religious morality.

In other words -- it has no value. But they are right ... absolutely right. Because there are actually two whole passages ... TWO ... I mean, that's a lot ... right? TWO whole verses in the Bible, both in the Old Testament, that condemns homosexuality. But there are NO verses in the Bible condemning pedophilia. So yeah ... I guess if you're going to hold Biblical morality to the letter, it is MUCH MUCH worse for a man to lie with a man than it is for a man to lie with a child. I mean, as an atheist, of course, I'm still scratching my head over that one ... but ... there it is.

Of course -- it's crap like this that made me an atheist in the first place.

And in all honesty, any Christian who can't see this is simply living in absolute, abject denial. The faith must be defended at all costs!! Of course that's another good thing about secular morality is that it rarely ever leads to the kind of fanaticism that robs a person of their objectivity. Which is why religious rules haven't been changed for 4,000 years while secular laws are changed all the time when we realize the mistakes and loopholes therein. But the "morality" of the Bible just keeps soldiering on without a change for thousands of years. Have to wonder why ... and it isn't because they're so perfect they don't need changed. Unless you don't mind if your hottie daughter is raped by some slavering whackjob and now she has to go marry him. I mean, if that's the case then, hey ... I'm done talking to you. I'm here talking to the rational people.

I say in conclusion -- but it's really not -- because there is SO much I could say on this subject. I could write an entire book on it, believe me. What I've written here is merely the preface of my argument. Not THE argument. However, time is limited -- few people really want to read these days -- and there IS a truncation limit somewhere on this board. I can't remember what the character/word limit is, but I believe I actually hit it once. (Though that could've been a different forum.)

But ... in conclusion, there is nothing religious morality can give humanity that we can't get from better, secular sources without the baggage train stretching back thousands of years. That just gives people an excuse to bring ancient and barbaric laws into the 21st Century because they have a personal hatred of gays and trans and even women. Unfortunately, religion is the perfect tool with which to justify one's own personal hatred and bigotry.

I will never say that the world would be perfect without religion -- because humanity and its awful shortcomings will just find another way and reason to villify groups that are different. But what removing religion DOES do is it removes the shadows people hide in when making their attacks. Without religion, if they want to be a bigot, they'll have to stand in the open and be a bigot. They won't be able to hid behind religion or justify their hateful, distasteful discourse by saying "God wanted ..." or "God said..." and then point to some obscure, craptastic verse in a holy book that was meant for a long dead culture thousands of years ago on the other side of the world.