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What a silly pre-conception.
Morality exists/existed long before God.
Babies have inbuilt conceptions of fairness and justice, as do chimpanzees. (Now I don't know if chimpanzees worship THE God just like their Christian brethren, having the same IQ and all. But I snark.)
Morality (to me) means justice tempered with mercy. Not abusing power. No stealing, no murder etc. Pretty much the 10 commandments without the first one. Every decent human being knows that is the only way to live, for themselves and for the good of the society. God has nothing to do with it, neither does religion.
If anything, religion probably evolved from a moral code, to enforce it when no one is watching or when the possible transgressor is too powerful for others to keep in line. Doesn't always work of course, or all those Catholic priests wouldn't have sodomized little children. But it must work a little bit or religion would have fallen by the wayside.
Read my replies above - I didn’t read your post after the first two lines. OP does not talk about God and religion and it’s connection with morality.
"hell" is not mentioned in the ten commandments at all. The ten commandments are about 3,200 years old. The invention of "hell" is about 1800 years old.
your own belief may be that without a belief in hell it "undermines the entire purpose of religion." If for you an eternal punishment of "hell" is the "entire purpose of religion" then that is your belief. For many others though (including believers and nonbelievers alike) that is not "the entire purpose of religion."
Hell is mentioned in the Book of Job, though the word "darkness" is used. Job is the oldest book in the Bible.
If there's no punishment for disobeying God's commandments, then why bother having any commandments? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for hell not to exist, but for heaven to exist. How can someone justify heaven existing, while denouncing the existence of hell?
As I said, I think some people deny the existence of hell because they willfully engage in behavior that they have no interest in changing and the Bible says is sinful.
What is the purpose of following His commandments if there is no punishment for not doing so?
You really don't have the slightest idea, do you?
Never heard of "goodness is its own reward"? Never heard of the benefits of kindness, love, generosity and empathy? You really don't see any point in being a decent human being except to escape eternal perdition?
Humans make observations. For example, somebody might say that I eat with my hands. These observations, or facts, are rarely left in isolation. If they are pointed out, it is meant to convey something about me. My behaviors are my morals. However, when atheists and morals are used in the same sentence, it is to determine whether or not atheists have good morals or if they are good people. To use my example again, Elyn eats with her hands. Therefore, she is unsophisticated. The first part is an observation. The second part is a preferred point of view. Another answer could have been provided such as that is part of Elyn's culture.
So what are you asking? Are you asking do atheists demonstrate a pattern of learned behavior? Obviously, yes. We have morals. Or are you asking if those morals are good? If so, then only you are in control of your opinion. But if you say they are not good, then I guess you have an answer to your question. If you can see the behavior and comment on it whether it is good morals or bad, then you have your evidence that it exists.
No, I am not questioning the quality of morality among Atheists. The morality in different variations practiced by Atheists is not the question.
We need to step back.
What’s the evidence that morality actually exists?
If no evidence to support the existence of morality, then what’s the rationale in believing in morality when there is no evidence?
If there's no punishment for disobeying God's commandments, then why bother having any commandments?\
There you go again.
Your concern that others be punished just sounds like so many sour grapes. You must be the template for the prodigal son's brother.
Let's flip it around. What's the point of grace and forgiveness if there's nothing to be forgiving or gracious about?
See how it is when you ask the wrong questions?
Your deity is supposed to have overcome evil and the world. He is supposed to be unwilling that ANY should perish. It's entirely possible to live a righteous life and not believe that people will be maximally and unendingly tormented forever and ever, choking and burning and screaming for mercy, and for god and his elect to be okay with the fact of that. Just blase', la-te-da and let's have another banquet because they had it coming, lol.
I could literally write a book on this subject. Because, as it should be obvious to nearly everyone in this forum -- it IS the Atheist & Agnostic forum, after all -- is that Christian morality doesn't even offer any morality.
In other words, there is literally nothing that religious morality can offer humanity that can't be found from secular sources. What's superior about the secular sources? Well ... there isn't thousands of years of baggage born of bigotry, sexism and misogyny, prejudice, racism, hatred, and just plain ignorance and fear.
I can pretty much guarantee that everyone living in modern society today would NOT want to live under religious so-called morality. All of the morals that you hold dear -- beyond all the supernatural woo -- are born of secular sources for secular reasons.
Even our Constitutional Bill of Rights is purely secular. All of those things that protect us and our rights -- god doesn't do it. WE do. Because nearly every right we have is in contravention of Biblical law.
Freedom of religion? Give me a break. Freedom of speech? Not with blasphemy laws on the books. Freedom of expression? I don't know - why not ask people like Galileo or Geodano Bruno if they had any freedom of expression. And that's just the First Amendment.
Because I'm just totally confident that God wanted everyone to own an AR-15 with an extended clip. Right? Isn't that why the 2nd Amendment is so often defended in religious terms? God wants ..? God desires ...?
Where in the Bible does God tell everyone that we have a right to Due Process? A Speedy Trial? Where does God say we are to be protected from Cruel and Unusual Punishments? Especially when stoning people to death is his favorite pastime -- and that's pretty cruel and unusual. It's very painful and takes a long time to die. How about the right to vote ... in an era that was ruled entirely by kings and family lines of succession? God didn't seem to mind any of that -- and he let it continue for another few thousand years.
Where does God give us the right to a jury trial? Where does God protect us from discrimination due to gender, age, disability, ethnicity, and nationality? Where does God make slavery illegal? Where does God protect the rights of children?
And here's one of my favorites: if you're one of those guys who ... I don't know ... maybe you're just weird or socially backwards ... maybe you're just ugly as sin ... or you have no style or you lack confidence ... but you're one of those guys who just can't land a date. Especially from a truly hot chick. You know, those raving beauties that sizzle the eyes right out of your sockets when you see one!
Well ... according to the Bible, all you have to do is march yourself down to your local high school and find yourself one of those fine-looking fresh virgin hotties. Whoo! And you can pick exactly the kind you want. Blond, brunette, redhead ... white, black, Asian, Indian ... man, you name it. It's like a human smorgasbord at the high school. The only thing you have to worry about is competition. Because there will likely be a small horde of guys just like you -- and even some who could snag a girl the right way -- but are too lazy to go through all the courting. Better get your hottie now because supplies ARE limited.
(Am I being kind of ... eeew, here? Good. Because it IS eeew.)
Once you find yourself the hottie of your dreams, just walk right up to her, throw her on the ground, and rape her. But do it out in the open where everyone will see you. Because you WANT to get caught. Once you go through the trial process -- assuming there is one -- your punishment will be a $50 fine and now you HAVE to marry your victim. Yep. The female victim gets no say in the matter. At all. And now that hottie you've always wanted is yours. And she cannot leave you. All you have to do is make sure she's fed and clothed. You can beat her. You can order her around. And best of all -- you get to rape her again. And again. And again. For the rest of your natural born life. And you won't go to Hell for it, either, because that's God's law! You don't even have to apologize for the thousands of rapes you'll commit. In fact, if you have some money, you can rape several women and secure a collection of hottie sex slaves. You just need to pay $50 for each of them. Then you can just buy them crappy t-shirts and jeans from Dollar General and feed them Mac N Cheese.
Because that's religious morality for you. And I'm not at ALL exaggerating. Oh, just a word of advice. Make sure your hottie isn't married. Because if she's married, it's considered adultery on both your parts and you'll be executed. Even your victim. Especially if you stop her from screaming. If you want to rape a married woman, just make sure you club her until she's unconscious. Because she can't go to the authorities and claim rape if she didn't scream -- or she gets stoned to death, too, you see ... she end up complicit in your own crime. Isn't religious morality grand? Especially crimes against women. Often the female victims are punished more harshly than the men who commited the crime!
Again ... secular morality has always been the best form of morality. Of course it isn't perfect. Nothing drafted by fallible human beings will ever be perfect. But even the most imperfect set of secular laws is still far and away better than most religious laws.
And let's dispense with the 900lb. gorilla in the room.
When has anyone heard of an atheist group flying planes into a building shouting, "For science!" Keep in mind that "only" some 3.5K people were killed in that attack. But the terrorists were hoping to nail some 50,000 deaths. And they could've gotten that many, too, if they had crashed the planes into a lower floor later in the day. In any event -- how many times have you heard or seen a story about someone who detonated a suicide vest in a crowded airport or bus station or discoteque or wherever -- shouting "Science is Great!" or "Nothing is Great!" or "Nothing!" or "No reason I just felt like it!" before blowing themselves and hundreds of others sky high? No, I won't say all terrorism is due to religious extremism. But A LOT of it is ... and most of the extreme acts were born of religion in some way, shape or form.
Also ... do a comparison on the number of religious hate groups recognized as such by the Southern Poverty Law Center -- and then compare that number to how many atheist hate groups there are.
It's also interesting how -- whenever bad parenting is bad enough to actually make the news, there's almost always a religious component. Like: "I killed my children so they wouldn't have to live in a sinful world." Or. "I killed my kids to get them to Heaven faster." Or. "I killed my kids because they were possessed by demons!"
One also has to wonder why it is that massive pedophile rings orchestrated by priests and preachers wasn't enough to enrage American Christendom. But a gay couple wanting a wedding cake for some reason ... was.
I bring this up to point out how -- not only are religious laws often brutal, violent, and unfair -- but the actual WEIGHT of each so-called "crime" is woefully out of whack from mainstream moral systems. The fact that there was more outrage over people being gay than there was about a HUGE pedophile ring in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Erie here in Pennsylvania kinda shows you the value of religious morality.
In other words -- it has no value. But they are right ... absolutely right. Because there are actually two whole passages ... TWO ... I mean, that's a lot ... right? TWO whole verses in the Bible, both in the Old Testament, that condemns homosexuality. But there are NO verses in the Bible condemning pedophilia. So yeah ... I guess if you're going to hold Biblical morality to the letter, it is MUCH MUCH worse for a man to lie with a man than it is for a man to lie with a child. I mean, as an atheist, of course, I'm still scratching my head over that one ... but ... there it is.
Of course -- it's crap like this that made me an atheist in the first place.
And in all honesty, any Christian who can't see this is simply living in absolute, abject denial. The faith must be defended at all costs!! Of course that's another good thing about secular morality is that it rarely ever leads to the kind of fanaticism that robs a person of their objectivity. Which is why religious rules haven't been changed for 4,000 years while secular laws are changed all the time when we realize the mistakes and loopholes therein. But the "morality" of the Bible just keeps soldiering on without a change for thousands of years. Have to wonder why ... and it isn't because they're so perfect they don't need changed. Unless you don't mind if your hottie daughter is raped by some slavering whackjob and now she has to go marry him. I mean, if that's the case then, hey ... I'm done talking to you. I'm here talking to the rational people.
I say in conclusion -- but it's really not -- because there is SO much I could say on this subject. I could write an entire book on it, believe me. What I've written here is merely the preface of my argument. Not THE argument. However, time is limited -- few people really want to read these days -- and there IS a truncation limit somewhere on this board. I can't remember what the character/word limit is, but I believe I actually hit it once. (Though that could've been a different forum.)
But ... in conclusion, there is nothing religious morality can give humanity that we can't get from better, secular sources without the baggage train stretching back thousands of years. That just gives people an excuse to bring ancient and barbaric laws into the 21st Century because they have a personal hatred of gays and trans and even women. Unfortunately, religion is the perfect tool with which to justify one's own personal hatred and bigotry.
I will never say that the world would be perfect without religion -- because humanity and its awful shortcomings will just find another way and reason to villify groups that are different. But what removing religion DOES do is it removes the shadows people hide in when making their attacks. Without religion, if they want to be a bigot, they'll have to stand in the open and be a bigot. They won't be able to hid behind religion or justify their hateful, distasteful discourse by saying "God wanted ..." or "God said..." and then point to some obscure, craptastic verse in a holy book that was meant for a long dead culture thousands of years ago on the other side of the world.
The last paragraph pretty trumps all of what you said above in a tone as if you were talking to yourself.
So it’s not the religion but part of collective human psychology and collective human behavior that where some of us will cause the trouble in human societies REGARDLESS of whether religion existed or not.. Thank you.
Morality can exist in atheists. But, it's subjective, which is the fatal flaw of atheism. No one is right or wrong and that's the problem. It leads to chaos.
...
Completely wrong. You appear to have no concept of the social contract that human beings (most human beings) have.
Tomorrow, if you suddenly learned that there really was no god...would that mean that you suddenly have no morality?
What is the purpose of following His commandments if there is no punishment for not doing so?
Whose commandments? I think his name is Moses. I'm reminded of a George Carlin comedy special where he talked, very truthfully and candidly, about Moses and the ten commandments.
It's not proof just because you said the above. It does not make it true. What's true? Reality and facts. Science doesn't claim they have evidence of a god, yet.
Just because the bible says that there are consequences to being a "sinner", does not mean sin exists. There is good and evil, obviously. We don't know why. It just is. Quit trying to figure out why things are the way they are and fight injustice or something. Make yourself actually useful IN THIS LIFE, and stop living for the pretend next one.
And please stop proselytizing to atheists in their forum. You know you are wasting your time and energy, right? If you don't know that, ask yourself why that is. Maybe you don't have the correct understanding about what is happening in this life, but that doesn't mean you stop living it trying to find answers to the unanswerable. That's what those ancient goat herders did, and look how that turned out. Not that the god question is unanswerable, it's undetermined. Until further notice.
atheist have more morals than preachers..pick any mega church preacher..from Jimmy Swaggart to Jim Baker to Creflow Dollar..
You remember those guys? You must be GenX. I'm familiar with all of them, I come from an evangelical background. Criminals, every one of them. They had their heyday in the 70's and 80's, and maybe the 90's also. It all came crashing down for all of them. Greed. That's all it was. It's very ignorant to say that atheists don't or can't have morals.
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I'm familiar with all of them, I come from an evangelical background. Criminals, every one of them. They had their heyday in the 70's and 80's, and maybe the 90's also. It all came crashing down for all of them. Greed. That's all it was. It's very ignorant to say that atheists don't or can't have morals.