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The original Torah was written about 2600 years ago by a cabal of priests in the then Babylon commissioned by Cyrus the Great (Persian conqueror) with the deliberate intention of creating a belief system that would have people in fear of authorities and so tied up in rules and regulations that they would be easy to rule. These priests were sent to Palestine to replace the existing leaders there and convert/impose the new religion onto the populace. Thus were the Jews born. They used many of the near eastern legends and mythologies, relying heavily on Zoroastrianism as the basis. The so-called "history" in it does not align with known histories and archaeological evidence. Some sounds suspiciously similar to other conquerers and warriors but the time is all wrong.
The New Testament books started being written around 70+AD with Revelations - distinctly different in style and theology from the other books. The gospels started showing up a couple hundred years after the purported events described in them. They are suspiciously similar in events and theology to several of the extremely popular mystical resurrection cults spread throughout the Roman Empire of the time.
So, to me, it is very evident that people wrote and made up the whole of the Bible in fits and starts for differing purposes. The Council of Nicea created the Christian Bible by making an edict of what was included and what was excluded as heretical. Again - just people exercising control over other people for their own power and aggrandizement. How better to control other people and have them give power to you than to claim god told them this and that?
So I see it as one of the most cynical snow jobs ever put over on people by other people.
I see it as mythology at best, political propaganda for the Christian movement, and a poor excuse of history. I could not begin to accept it a format to base my life on. It is too prejudicial, violent, and just a ridiculous attempt at guiding a religion or political socity.
The 'identity crisis of Christianity' is a rejection of "SELF'.
The comparison that the typical understanding of the bible is the result of thousands of years of "telephone" game type communication is just what Jesus said of the Pharisee's worship style. Tradition has always replaced truth, been handed down from generation to generation, and has interfered with the understanding of scripture because humanity has no true devotion to objective truth.
Even though he was not a philosopher, Pilate made reference that humanity functions according to SUBJECTIVE/biased truth and cares nothing about what is objectively true when he said "What is truth?" (John 18:38 and 14:6). Objective/real truth might be thought to be only theorectically/academically important, but it is so important that God made sure that we could be aware of how significant it actually is. He pointed this out in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 in no uncertain terms... Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for RSV
Another very serious obstacle to true understanding is that our goal is not (should not be) to be "a" Christian, the goal should be that we remain "a" human being that has beliefs characteristic of those found in Christian scripture (which is why we are reminded of the Father's FOREVER name... Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for RSV
"Self abasement" (Colossians 2:18) has always been encouraged/taught. The average "christian" simply never had true access to reasoning ability and conscience (since we are encouraged to ignore freewill). To us, having a peaceful and Godly spirit is an option (God does require this, but we must CHOOSE of our own freewill), but we've been trained to only look for 'commands' that compel us to conform to a book instead of actually have a peaceful and Godly spirit... Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for RSV
The origin of all existence (God) is a cosmic reality, but humanity's ability to understand, relate to, and identify with the creator has been completely distorted because the modern day "Brood of Vipers" (Matthew 3:7, 12:34, 23:33) has always taught everyone wanting to love God to become twice a "child of hell" than themselves (Matthew 23:15).
The bottom line is that the rejection of INSTITUTIONAL "christianity" is the greatest act of love towards the creator and also the greatest act of respect to humanity.
Nothing in scripture is of random occurrence. God made sure that all events happened as they should and that the words were recorded so that we would be able to someday learn from them, but humanity has always found it easier to to treat the bible as a 'roadmap to God' full of 'commands' instead of God's wise counsel (good advice) and insight into human nature.
Last edited by more excellent way; 06-13-2008 at 07:56 PM..
Reason: explanation
To be realistic, it's difficult to discuss objective truth about a subject that someone declared they don't believe is true without mentioning the subject that is not believed but was expressly chosen to discuss.
EXAMPLE
Whether or not a person believes that UFO's exist, if they decide/choose to discuss the existence of UFO's or the validity of literature about them and at the same time insist that UFO's not be mentioned....(well, you see the problem, by definition, discussion becomes an impossibility).
You are perfectly welcome to think of me as the most cold-hearted person on earth because I actually don't care if anyone on earth believes what I write, but what I have discussed is....
1) identity crisis (this is not confined to any form of worship of an external entity).
2) truth (the difference between objective and subjective/biased truth).
3) conscience (consciousness of self, individuality, ethics/values).
4) freewill
5) cosmic reality
6) the possibility/validity of an origin
I have not seen anybody NOT discuss what the original poster chose to make this topic, nor have I seen anybody declare scripture to be irrelevant to the topic that either should or shouldn't be discussed. My only possible understanding of why anyone would object to my posts is that it challenges their status quo (if I "dicussused" with a scientist and said something that didn't agree with accepted science understanding, there also would be disagreement with/objection to my post).
Feel free to illustrate how to "NOT DISCUSS" a specified "topic".
Last edited by more excellent way; 06-14-2008 at 04:53 AM..
Reason: spelling
To be realistic, it's difficult to discuss objective truth about a subject that someone declared they don't believe is true without mentioning the subject that is not believed but was expressly chosen to discuss.
EXAMPLE
Whether or not a person believes that UFO's exist, if they decide/choose to discuss the existence of UFO's or the validity of literature about them and at the same time insist that UFO's not be mentioned....(well, you see the problem, by definition, discussion becomes an impossibility).
You are perfectly welcome to think of me as the most cold-hearted person on earth because I actually don't care if anyone on earth believes what I write, but what I have discussed is....
1) identity crisis (this is not confined to any form of worship of an external entity).
2) truth (the difference between objective and subjective/biased truth).
3) conscience (consciousness of self, individuality, ethics/values).
4) freewill
5) cosmic reality
6) the possibility/validity of an origin
I have not seen anybody NOT discuss what the original poster chose to make this topic, nor have I seen anybody declare scripture to be irrelevant to the topic that either should or shouldn't be discussed. My only possible understanding of why anyone would object to my posts is that it challenges their status quo (if I "dicussused" with a scientist and said something that didn't agree with accepted science understanding, there also would be disagreement with/objection to my post).
Feel free to illustrate how to "NOT DISCUSS" a specified "topic".
Original post
Obviously you don't believe as Christians do, that the Bible is the word of God...so what do you think it is? Do you believe it was written over a long period of time (as Christians do) by many different men? Do you even believe that it was written 2000 years ago or perhaps more recently? Does it have as much credence as other works written around the same time? Why was it written? I know, lots of questions and I appreciate anyone who is willing to take the time to share what your thoughts are about the Bible.
I read your post, and do feel I answered the Opening Post, but will be glad to dig deeper.
1-It is true I do not accept the Christian doctrine, and I see the Bible as mythology and nothing more.
2- I recognize the age at 1800 to 2000 years old, but also recognize it has been changed to meet the needs of the church over the centuries. The Council of Nicea was the first major editing of the books used to make up the bible. Many were rejected, and despite the Christian objection it is noted in history many were burned to end what might be disagreement or contradictions with the chosen books. The Emperor Constantine was the Major Editor in controller of this editing project as he needed a religion that would be easier to control. A one God religion was much easier than the hundreds of gods scattered through his empire. This was a great political move on his part, and the one god was based on the many “sun gods†of past empires, thus making an easy conversion.
3- It (the bible) has no credence. It is a book of mythology and at best a poor history changed to give a view used to control and manipulate the masses.
4- It was written for political reasons. Control over the gullible masses. It included a set of values to help control human shortcomings which have now been replaced with laws.
"christianity" is a spiritual mess, not the bible.
The last writing in the bible (the book of Revelation) was added about 1900 years ago.
All 66 books of the generic Christian bible (Catholics have a slightly different number of books in their bible) span an unspecified time period starting with the first instance of time at Genesis 1:1 (which might be millions of years ago) and is a historical record of many of God's interactions with humanity.
Scripture was penned by men, but God inspired/encouraged them to write what is in scripture. The bible details alot of humanity's lifestyles/behavior in the Old Testament before Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago, but it is the NEW Testament ONLY that is relevant to true devotion, not the Old Testament.
The New Testament (new covenant between God and man) begins with the 'gospels' (4 accounts of Jesus's life on earth). The rest of the New Testament contains words that were penned by the apostles, but still inspired by God.
In Old Testament times, life was alot harder than today and even when people worshipped God, their greed turned worship into a business (no heart). God sent His son, Jesus, to be crucified on the cross, and be resurrected in order to end the old covenant between God and man (it was based on law).
Before Jesus ascended/rose to heaven, He left His spirit so that we would be able to learn to have a peaceful and Godly spirit. For the last 2000 years, many people ("christians" included) continued to make worship a business (the collection plate), but never really chose to have a peaceful and Godly spirit (in other words, they put on a fake personality).
Billions of christians are not truly saved because Jesus only purified our soul. Jesus made salvation available to everyone on earth, but having a peaceful and Godly spirit in our heart and mind purifies our conscience and is the guarantee of having what Jesus made available to all humanity.
The Old Testament can be completely ignored, it has no truly useful purpose anymore, but many people simply enjoy being scholars of it in order to glorify themselves instead of the creator while the greedy keep the collection plates full (it's the same worship business all over again, no heart).
Up until about 70 A.D., Jesus worship was called "The Way", but in Antioch (Acts 11:26, John 14:6), the partisan name "christians" began being used. That's when Jesus worship started being corrupted and made into a collection plate business.
The bible does contain words that God spoke, but it is not the word of God that we should live by (as has always been thought). Scripture (the word "bible" is simply man's designation for scripture) is extremely clear that it is not the word of God (it is the word of TRUTH, 2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6), the INTRODUCTORY doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1). The "sword of the spirit" is the word of God (Ephesians 6:17).
This is all amazingly very clear in scripture, but christianity has always been blinded by the self imposed "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.
To me the bible was written by people like you and me, translated, and embellished over the centuries. It is not intended to be followed literally no more than rocks can be pets.
To me, the bible is at best a morality tale written with the goal of controlling mankind.* At worst it is a method of destroying free thought.If, as the religious believe, it is the literal word of their god, why are there so many variations/versions of it and how can it claim dominance over the many other texts of other religions (which also claim to be gods word and the sole truth)?It is about as historical as Aesops' Tales but not as good a read.
the 666collection plate corrupts the understanding of scripture.
Scripture contains alot of deep insight into the human mind (as only our maker could provide). I experienced the worst of human nature for 51 years by dealing with a severely dysfunctional family, but I didn't really learn anything about human nature until I left the indoctrination of the christian institutions. God taught me to be a human being instead of be "a" christian.
In my understanding, this "self abasement" (dehumanization) is the most serious effect of the teachings of institutional christianity. God foresaw this problem and cautioned against it in Colossians 2:18.
The creator's true message in scripture is not that "masses" (society as a whole) should have identical devotions and knowledge of Him, it is that we should each be relating to Him personally (with individuality, conscious of SELF). The creator does also relate to humanity as a whole (using terms like "I am who I am" and "Son of man"), but He wants/desires each of us to relate to Him personally so that He can also relate to us personally (His spirit "yearns jealously" over each of us, James 4:5) so that the individual's spirit can be compatible with that of the creator.
God also had Pilate ask "What is truth?" (an unusual question in humanity), referring to humanity's preference for subjective truth over objective truth. The lack of attention to "truth" is the second most serious problem in the institutional teachings, and God points this out also ("...AND SO BE SAVED", 2 Thess. 2:10). God is very explicit about this, but when someone is dehumanized ('christianized'), they no longer have the ability to truly think or see/understand. This is why christians never understood how to worship in truth and spirit.
All throughout the bible, verses/passages validate other parts of scripture. All throughout the Old Testament, there are prophecies that contain many details of the crucifixion (30 pieces of silver, specific details of Jesus's sufferings, etc.).
Scripture is characteristic of a vastly superior intelligence and could not have been human-engineered even if any part of humanity (past or present) could ever have such a desire for goodness. When scripture is correctly understood, there is definitely no message for "control" or "masses".
Any suggestion of control is a completely misguided one. The 'sin laws' (the commandments and also the New Testament 'commands') were abolished by what Jesus did (Ephesians 2:15) and were replaced by the law of LIBERTY (James 1:25 and 2:12, NO CONTROL).
It is true that we must do works,...the works of GOD (not OUR own self-effort) by completely trusting that He did everything that is necessary (John 6:28 and 29) and that we have already been completely justified in the son of God (1 Corinthians 6:11, Galatians 2:16 and 17).
Would humanity ever write anything like this?
Last edited by more excellent way; 06-15-2008 at 08:51 AM..
Reason: spelling
While the Bible is, for me, a collection of morality and miracle tales, and advice on how to live, and an account of Jesus's life, I do try to keep in mind that it is, for whatever reason, sacred to some and try to respect that. In kind, I ask for the respect that comes with accepting that I may not see it the same way.
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The 'identity crisis of Christianity' is a rejection of "SELF'.
