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Polarized thinking as I see it would be a death blow to any chance of change.
Uh, yeah, that is the point June was making, cncracer.
Do you honestly NOT see yourself as exhibiting the true classical definition of "polarized thinking!?"
--And I know Freud wouldn't disagree with me on this one, even though I fully suspect you will. --But then again, he's also the guy who coined that convenient little term "projection." (again.)
History and basic human morality show us the right path. History has shown us atrocities caused by Christians for their entire 2000 year history. I see death, torture, crimes against humanity, genocide, wars, restrictive lives, and hate of any people who view the world from a different view point. It sure shows me the path not to take.
This has been an interesting batch of posts. We're both atheists but I look at the situation much differently. I don't feel I can blame my Christian Mother or sister for crimes against humanity that were committed by Christians centuries ago, the world has completely changed since the days of the Spanish Inquisition or Salem witch trials. The religion that I feel is truly a threat to civilization at this point in history is the small group of radical muslims who are living as though it was 500 years ago. I really don't see anything even resembling this kind of behavior in modern Christian culture. While I oppose the right wing of American evangelicals in terms of their political aspirations I'm not in the least bit intimidated by it and I think they've been losing that battle because thankfully our Founding Fathers had the wisdom to not create a Christian nation. My feeling is that atheists should present a positive alternative to religion based on our own merits as opposed to ripping into Christians because that strategy just makes us look bad and the stigma of being an atheist is bad enough already. Some of your statements make it sound as though there are enemy camps of armed Christians surrounding your home and it's a fight to the death struggle. Don't get me wrong, I've read lots of your posts and I find you to be a likeable person but I don't think this concept of open hostility to Christians is helpful to furthering the cause of atheism. I truly believe that the realization that God and the angels do not exist gives a more realistic perspective on life but if you try to rub the noses of Christians into that fact it's going to be very counterproductive. No hard feelings I hope, I'm just being honest.
This has been an interesting batch of posts. We're both atheists but I look at the situation much differently. I don't feel I can blame my Christian Mother or sister for crimes against humanity that were committed by Christians centuries ago, the world has completely changed since the days of the Spanish Inquisition or Salem witch trials. The religion that I feel is truly a threat to civilization at this point in history is the small group of radical muslims who are living as though it was 500 years ago. I really don't see anything even resembling this kind of behavior in modern Christian culture. While I oppose the right wing of American evangelicals in terms of their political aspirations I'm not in the least bit intimidated by it and I think they've been losing that battle because thankfully our Founding Fathers had the wisdom to not create a Christian nation. My feeling is that atheists should present a positive alternative to religion based on our own merits as opposed to ripping into Christians because that strategy just makes us look bad and the stigma of being an atheist is bad enough already. Some of your statements make it sound as though there are enemy camps of armed Christians surrounding your home and it's a fight to the death struggle. Don't get me wrong, I've read lots of your posts and I find you to be a likeable person but I don't think this concept of open hostility to Christians is helpful to furthering the cause of atheism. I truly believe that the realization that God and the angels do not exist gives a more realistic perspective on life but if you try to rub the noses of Christians into that fact it's going to be very counterproductive. No hard feelings I hope, I'm just being honest.
Montana, No hard feelings, I enjoy the exchanges and debate. I also don’t blame my Jewish Mother or protestant Father for the wars and deaths of The inquisition. I look at the organizations and recognize information of their atrocities was held from the general population. The church worked as masters of propaganda and feed lies to humanity for thousands of years. They still do, only now it is harder to hide. In the past when individuals tried to bring news out and expose the problems and the organizations connected to those issues they were blasted with information to cast a question on them as people and the facts. I have read of when Eleanor Roosevelt learned of the Serbian Holocaust in WW II after the war, she wanted to announce it to the press and as a result had to suffer a negative press campaign the rest of her life. The power of the church was harder to fight than. Individuals just did not have the information we have, and thus I don’t hold them responsible for the atrocities.
In my view today we live in a world where information is available. Knowledge of the religious organizations connections with wars, and crimes are there to read and study, and they cover not only the past atrocities but those in the life spans of many of our CD members. The German Holocaust, the Croatian/Serbian Holocaust of 1942 to 1944 are both WW II issues. In my life span and occurring today we have The Serbian war of 1999, The general religious unrest in the Balkans, Serbian VS Bosnian and Albanians Muslims, Northern Ireland (Catholic VS Protestants), Kashmir (Muslims VS Hindus), Sudan (Muslims VS Christians), Nigeria (Muslims VS Christiana), Ethiopia (Muslims VS Christians), Ivory Coast (Muslims VS Christiana), Philippines (Muslims VS Christiana) all are within the last 8 years and most are still going on now. We are cycling into another period of religious wars, and doing so in an era of nuclear weapons.
I guess my question is at what point do we take a stand, do we wait till there are another 200 million killed over a myth, or are we to wait till their fringe groups set off a nuclear weapon and kill us all. I have already answered that question for myself, and it is not related to individual’s guilt or connection to religion, but rather to the organizations who have for 2000 years committed atrocities against humanity not for a god, but for that organizations greed and hunger for power.
I guess my question is at what point do we take a stand, do we wait till there are another 200 million killed over a myth, or are we to wait till their fringe groups set off a nuclear weapon and kill us all. I have already answered that question for myself, and it is not related to individual’s guilt or connection to religion, but rather to the organizations who have for 2000 years committed atrocities against humanity not for a god, but for that organizations greed and hunger for power.
When you put it like that it makes alot more sense, there's no doubt that the slaughtering of various muslim sects in Iraq and elsewhere who are still all muslims is completely insane. One of the places you see that type of killings between Christians and muslims is in many nations in Africa. Muslims are extremely protective of what they see as their turf and of course Christian missionaries are always trying to convert more people to Christianity so there's a fierce rivalry there which often ends in murder. I watched a documentary about it maybe a year ago and it was unbelievable.
Here's the part I don't quite understand about some of your posts and it's not just you, there's quite a few atheists who tend to express some real hostility to anyone who happens to be a Christian. I know there are some radical Christians who would like to replace our form of government with an official state religion and base our laws on Christian principles in the same manner that certain muslim nations like Saudi Arabia do but they're really a very small minority of the Christian population in America. I believe in the complete freedom to think whatever you want and by definition that includes the freedom to be religious and follow your own path in life. I'm completely convinced that there is no God and that religion is an illusion but I feel that there's really nothing so special about me that my beliefs or lack of beliefs should be considered to be any more important than those of any other American citizen. I also really do believe in the concept of diversity and the inclusion of everyone as an equal regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, ethnic background and I would include religion or philsophical beliefs as well. What it all boils down to for me is that I think human beings need to treat each other with more respect and common courtesy. That simple gesture of recognizing that someone may be completely different from you in many ways but is deserving of being treated as an equal makes a very powerful statement.
What it all boils down to for me is that I think human beings need to treat each other with more respect and common courtesy. That simple gesture of recognizing that someone may be completely different from you in many ways but is deserving of being treated as an equal makes a very powerful statement.
My dear, sweet man, for that ^ statement, June would give you all her rep points, if she could. (And that, folks, is why she loves the guy.)
When you put it like that it makes alot more sense, there's no doubt that the slaughtering of various muslim sects in Iraq and elsewhere who are still all muslims is completely insane. One of the places you see that type of killings between Christians and muslims is in many nations in Africa. Muslims are extremely protective of what they see as their turf and of course Christian missionaries are always trying to convert more people to Christianity so there's a fierce rivalry there which often ends in murder. I watched a documentary about it maybe a year ago and it was unbelievable.
Here's the part I don't quite understand about some of your posts and it's not just you, there's quite a few atheists who tend to express some real hostility to anyone who happens to be a Christian. I know there are some radical Christians who would like to replace our form of government with an official state religion and base our laws on Christian principles in the same manner that certain muslim nations like Saudi Arabia do but they're really a very small minority of the Christian population in America. I believe in the complete freedom to think whatever you want and by definition that includes the freedom to be religious and follow your own path in life. I'm completely convinced that there is no God and that religion is an illusion but I feel that there's really nothing so special about me that my beliefs or lack of beliefs should be considered to be any more important than those of any other American citizen. I also really do believe in the concept of diversity and the inclusion of everyone as an equal regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, ethnic background and I would include religion or philsophical beliefs as well. What it all boils down to for me is that I think human beings need to treat each other with more respect and common courtesy. That simple gesture of recognizing that someone may be completely different from you in many ways but is deserving of being treated as an equal makes a very powerful statement.
Quote: MontanaGuy
Here's the part I don't quite understand about some of your posts and it's not just you, there's quite a few atheists who tend to express some real hostility to anyone who happens to be a Christian.
I like many other atheists are realist and recognize the people following the church are not the ones pulling the triggers, but also know their organizations can not be trusted. If 2000 years of history is not enough to show who we can trust and can’t trust than I don’t know what it will take. I, like you, would love to think they would grant us the right to exist free of their influence, but I know better. Their organizations just can not be trusted not to push into our lives, attack our freedoms, and in worst case kill any and all who don’t agree with them.
Quote: MontanaGuy
I know there are some radical Christians who would like to replace our form of government with an official state religion and base our laws on Christian principles in the same manner that certain muslim nations like Saudi Arabia do but they're really a very small minority of the Christian population in America. I believe in the complete freedom to think whatever you want and by definition that includes the freedom to be religious and follow your own path in life.
I think we can all see the “religious right” has made inroads into our freedom of religion in this country in the last eight years. I watched decisions made which were based on religious views and in my view totally unacceptable in a country with separation of Church and State as one of our basic rights. I do not know what the next four or eight years will bring for this country, but I do know if we do not make a stand we will be the Christian version of Iran in time.
Quote: MontanaGuy
I'm completely convinced that there is no God and that religion is an illusion but I feel that there's really nothing so special about me that my beliefs or lack of beliefs should be considered to be any more important than those of any other American citizen. I also really do believe in the concept of diversity and the inclusion of everyone as an equal regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, ethnic background and I would include religion or philsophical beliefs as well. What it all boils down to for me is that I think human beings need to treat each other with more respect and common courtesy. That simple gesture of recognizing that someone may be completely different from you in many ways but is deserving of being treated as an equal makes a very powerful statement.
Montana, I like all that you said, and I wish I could accept that was the way things would work, but all I have to go by is history, and that tells me it just is not going to happen. The major religions continue their paths of the last 2000 years, and continue to be the catalyst to wars and genocide world wide. The position of a secondary or primary political system is their goal. Power and greed is their driving forces, not the teaching of a myth based god.
The common courtesy you look for in not in their business plan, and to expect them to change after 2000 years of atrocities is not being realistic. They hope we will follow their statement “The Meek Inheriting the Earth”, but it is not how they run their business now or in the past. It is also not how I plan to approach any issues with them.
Sorry about the bold, I just could not make your quote "grey", and wanted to break the answers into the issues of your post.
cncracer, I agree that there are a number of very right wing religious organizations whose purpose is to aggressively promote legislation that conforms to their agenda. The greatest success they've had is in passing anti gay legislation in many states. I think that depriving a gay person of their civil rights is immoral and I agree that we should be just as aggressive in opposing their actions. When I talked about treating each other with common courtesy and respect I'm really just referring to how we treat the Christians on this forum and Christians as individuals that we encounter in our everyday lives. There have been a few Christians whose posts I've read over the last year and a half who did appear to be part of the extreme right and probably were active in organizations that I don't believe are in the best interests of our country but the great majority of Christians here seem to be honest and very reasonable people and I see no reason to show them disrespect just because they happen to believe in God. In fact I've found many posts by Christians to be quite intelligent and occasionally very moving. Here's something to consider, I mentioned a few Christians who I thought were pretty radical who of course I won't mention by name but their comments were generally not well received and in my opinion they lost those debates very badly. If an atheist takes on a similar aggressive, in your face kind of demeanor it's going to reflect badly on atheism and they will be doing the same thing as the far right Christians. I'm not saying you've gone that far, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that the most productive means of communicating with individuals is through mutual respect and that is a very different situation than dealing with an organization.
cncracer, I agree that there are a number of very right wing religious organizations whose purpose is to aggressively promote legislation that conforms to their agenda. The greatest success they've had is in passing anti gay legislation in many states. I think that depriving a gay person of their civil rights is immoral and I agree that we should be just as aggressive in opposing their actions. When I talked about treating each other with common courtesy and respect I'm really just referring to how we treat the Christians on this forum and Christians as individuals that we encounter in our everyday lives. There have been a few Christians whose posts I've read over the last year and a half who did appear to be part of the extreme right and probably were active in organizations that I don't believe are in the best interests of our country but the great majority of Christians here seem to be honest and very reasonable people and I see no reason to show them disrespect just because they happen to believe in God. In fact I've found many posts by Christians to be quite intelligent and occasionally very moving. Here's something to consider, I mentioned a few Christians who I thought were pretty radical who of course I won't mention by name but their comments were generally not well received and in my opinion they lost those debates very badly. If an atheist takes on a similar aggressive, in your face kind of demeanor it's going to reflect badly on atheism and they will be doing the same thing as the far right Christians. I'm not saying you've gone that far, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying that the most productive means of communicating with individuals is through mutual respect and that is a very different situation than dealing with an organization.
Montana, I think I have tried to separate the individual from the organizations. I have and still do think the majority of humans are basically good, and thus as individuals I do respect them. (This is just a statement not a move to a defensive mode.)
I do not respect many religious organizations. I see them as greedy, connected to crime, and hungry for power now or through out their history. It is a mix which has resulted in too many deaths, and to date they have not had to account for these atrocities.
I think many of the individuals who follow a faith because they believe it or just to blend with the flow expect the respect of their right as individual and to believe what they wants should pass to their organizations as rights to convert who they want. I don’t accept that view. Their organizations do not accept that view also, as seen with the push to convert as many people to their faiths as they can, through any method they can.
Individuals who are offended thus are offended because I don’t accept their organization or their god, and that is an issue I can not correct for them and they just have to accept it as my view.
The individual rights which they want from me are granted as long as they do not take my rights to believe as I want. History has shown their organizations do not accept that right, and our history and sadly our present are filled with deaths and atrocities because of that lack of respect on their part.
As an atheist my stand will mirror the stand that is put to me, and if I come off hard or direct, than it is to an issue or question I see as a hard and direct. The answer may not make an individual feel good, but it will be correct as best as I can find it, and I am not here to make anybody feel good, just to let them see a different view exist out there. I am not one who tries to be political correct, and thus will stir a stink pot with great joy if I think it will expose a truth. I see that as a refreshing trait in a world hiding from truth and facts.
I especially feel this way in this forum, as I think it is where true debate can take place with people who have open and thinking minds.
There are other forums where you can go and find the feel good and fun post if that what you want. I go to them often too, but personally if that is all we had here I would not come as often, and would not be as open in my views.
As an atheist my stand will mirror the stand that is put to me, and if I come off hard or direct, than it is to an issue or question I see as a hard and direct. The answer may not make an individual feel good, but it will be correct as best as I can find it, and I am not here to make anybody feel good, just to let them see a different view exist out there.
Nonsense.
You already know that everybody knows there is a "different view out there".
Your "hard and direct" stance is aimed at every last Christian. You repeat that you respect their rights as individuals but where is the evidence of that?
I don't understand how a person with an open mind can say that they "know" that the US will be a Christian version of Iran eventually. You don't know that any more than Christians know that Jesus will return soon.
Basing judgements of people on things things that you "know" will happen in the future is the worst way to go about it.
Go on with your crusade if you must. I mostly wish you would admit that you don't know what you don't know. It's an insult to freethinking.
Nonsense.
You already know that everybody knows there is a "different view out there".
Your "hard and direct" stance is aimed at every last Christian. You repeat that you respect their rights as individuals but where is the evidence of that?
I don't understand how a person with an open mind can say that they "know" that the US will be a Christian version of Iran eventually. You don't know that any more than Christians know that Jesus will return soon.
Basing judgements of people on things things that you "know" will happen in the future is the worst way to go about it.
Go on with your crusade if you must. I mostly wish you would admit that you don't know what you don't know. It's an insult to freethinking.
Frank,
The evidence of that is I don’t attack them personally. I address the problems with religious organizations, not and individual as you just did. That said I don’t find you different view as offensive just direct which I respect more than tip toeing around an issue.
The Iran statement is out of context and was (I do not know what the next four or eight years will bring for this country, but I do know if we do not make a stand we will be the Christian version of Iran in time.) I think if you see “if we do not take a stand” softens your “Know” assumption and remove me from the position of being all seeing and omnipotent.
As for looking into the future I can only do so by looking to the past and I know history repeats itself way too often.
And lastly, I respect your views, but I will continue my crusade as I see it as one of the only ways to keep history from repeating itself once again.
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