Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That doesn't make it real in any way. Praying has been proven to be 99.9% ineffective. Pain is real. God isn't.
Scientific proof is worthless for spiritual issues. It is a Catch 22 situation regarding scientific tests. The following are the essential features for prayer to be effective:
1.) SINCERE BELIEF among all participants. This is the uncontrolled variable because it cannot be measured objectively. Without sincere belief . . . prayer goes nowhere and achieves nothing. So to have a random group of people praying for . . . whatever . . . is useless . . . in fact it is counterproductive.
2.) The recipient has to be a sincere believer as well.
3.) Those praying have to genuinely care about the one they are praying for . . . they can't just be any random group off the street even if they are sincere believers.
4.) There can be no doubt or skepticism in the participants (virtually impossible in science experiments . . . since it is predicated on skepticism).
5.) Contrary to popular belief there ARE limits to what can be achieved by prayer. No regrowing limbs or other extreme violations of natural laws (which are God's).
6.) The primary channel (but not the only one) available for God to have an impact is through human beings who are receptive to and influenced by God . . . this includes anyone capable of providing aid and the recipient as stated above.
7.) But the MOST IMPORTANT factor is sincere belief and the absence of doubt in ALL who are involved.
Given my extensive knowledge of the scientific method . . . I can guarantee that none of these factors were present in the so-called tests that disproved prayer's effectiveness 99.9% . . . if that number is even valid.
Scientific proof is worthless for spiritual issues. It is a Catch 22 situation regarding scientific tests. The following are the essential features for prayer to be effective:
1.) SINCERE BELIEF among all participants. This is the uncontrolled variable because it cannot be measured objectively. Without sincere belief . . . prayer goes nowhere and achieves nothing. So to have a random group of people praying for . . . whatever . . . is useless . . . in fact it is counterproductive.
2.) The recipient has to be a sincere believer as well.
3.) Those praying have to genuinely care about the one they are praying for . . . they can't just be any random group off the street even if they are sincere believers.
4.) There can be no doubt or skepticism in the participants (virtually impossible in science experiments . . . since it is predicated on skepticism).
5.) Contrary to popular belief there ARE limits to what can be achieved by prayer. No regrowing limbs or other extreme violations of natural laws (which are God's).
6.) The primary channel (but not the only one) available for God to have an impact is through human beings who are receptive to and influenced by God . . . this includes anyone capable of providing aid and the recipient as stated above.
7.) But the MOST IMPORTANT factor is sincere belief and the absence of doubt in ALL who are involved.
Given my extensive knowledge of the scientific method . . . I can guarantee that none of these factors were present in the so-called tests that disproved prayer's effectiveness 99.9% . . . if that number is even valid.
The question posed was to athiests and what do they do when they are in a situation where others feel the need to pray. The athiest forum is not the place to prostelitize.
The question posed was to athiests and what do they do when they are in a situation where others feel the need to pray. The athiest forum is not the place to prostelitize.
Get off your high horse. My response was to atheist questions and supposed refutations. No proselytizing involved. Believe what you want . . . it is of no import to me.
Scientific proof is worthless for spiritual issues. It is a Catch 22 situation regarding scientific tests. The following are the essential features for prayer to be effective:
1.) SINCERE BELIEF among all participants. This is the uncontrolled variable because it cannot be measured objectively. Without sincere belief . . . prayer goes nowhere and achieves nothing. So to have a random group of people praying for . . . whatever . . . is useless . . . in fact it is counterproductive.
2.) The recipient has to be a sincere believer as well.
3.) Those praying have to genuinely care about the one they are praying for . . . they can't just be any random group off the street even if they are sincere believers.
4.) There can be no doubt or skepticism in the participants (virtually impossible in science experiments . . . since it is predicated on skepticism).
5.) Contrary to popular belief there ARE limits to what can be achieved by prayer. No regrowing limbs or other extreme violations of natural laws (which are God's).
6.) The primary channel (but not the only one) available for God to have an impact is through human beings who are receptive to and influenced by God . . . this includes anyone capable of providing aid and the recipient as stated above.
7.) But the MOST IMPORTANT factor is sincere belief and the absence of doubt in ALL who are involved.
Given my extensive knowledge of the scientific method . . . I can guarantee that none of these factors were present in the so-called tests that disproved prayer's effectiveness 99.9% . . . if that number is even valid.
This is a really sad cop-out. Do you forget the patients in the experiments? Are you to tell me that if a little girl has pneumonia or if a mother of two has cancer and people pray for her in a double blind experiment then god will make them die just to mess up a scientific experiment? One that can show that prayer works and convert thousands of unbelievers or people from different religions?
It's not that trying to test the validity of prayer wont make it work, it's that prayer simply does not work.Because of this, we have dozen of cop-outs designed to help people rationalize why their prayer didn't work(specially when it comes to amputees).
When it comes to praying, I bow my head out of respect. I'll wish the person a good recovery because that's exactly what I would like it to happen.
If I'm asked to say grace then I wont say that "I'm grateful to god", just that "I'm grateful" because I am grateful for all the things I've worked so hard to get, for all the help I've received from well natured people and for all the love my family is happy to give.
This is a really sad cop-out. Do you forget the patients in the experiments? Are you to tell me that if a little girl has pneumonia or if a mother of two has cancer and people pray for her in a double blind experiment then god will make them die just to mess up a scientific experiment? One that can show that prayer works and convert thousands of unbelievers or people from different religions?
REad what is written . . . don't attach your preconceptions to it and then refute them. The effectiveness of prayer is ENTIRELY dependent on the status (belief and absence of doubt) of the participants and their cognitive relationship to God and the recipient. Generic prayer by basically disinterested or unconcerned individuals is just recitation of nonsense (as in church assemblies whose participants have no connection with that for which the prayers are supposedly being said). Public prayer is useless. It is a sincere private personal talk and a request . . . when aggregated it can be very powerful.
Quote:
When it comes to praying, I bow my head out of respect. I'll wish the person a good recovery because that's exactly what I would like it to happen.
THAT IS prayer, coosjoaquin.
Quote:
If I'm asked to say grace then I wont say that "I'm grateful to god", just that "I'm grateful" because I am grateful for all the things I've worked so hard to get, for all the help I've received from well natured people and for all the love my family is happy to give.
Praying means going down on your knees in the name of God. If someone is in a difficult situation, what does he need? I think he needs human sympathies not hypocrisies. If he is in a vulnerable situation, is this a good time to convert him?
As an atheist, I never do anything in the name of God.
REad what is written . . . don't attach your preconceptions to it and then refute them. The effectiveness of prayer is ENTIRELY dependent on the status (belief and absence of doubt) of the participants and their cognitive relationship to God and the recipient. Generic prayer by basically disinterested or unconcerned individuals is just recitation of nonsense (as in church assemblies whose participants have no connection with that for which the prayers are supposedly being said). Public prayer is useless. It is a sincere private personal talk and a request . . . when aggregated it can be very powerful. THAT IS prayer, coosjoaquin.THAT IS grace, coosjoaquin.
No, it is useless and in many cases detrimental to the persons health.
There is a reason I mention loving mother of two, my mom has been battling cancer for almost seven years now. She is a devout christian, the people who pray for her are very pious and the only significant change in her condition has been the cancer no longer responding to the chemotherapy. Family members pray for her to get better by winter, she doesn't, so my mom becomes stressed. They pray so that she gets better by summer, she doesn't, so my mom becomes more stressed. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if people prayed in private but for some reason they need to parade it as if they were giving billions to charity.
Tell me that your god operates under impossibly strict conditions but I don't buy it. Prayer doesn't work and every excuse is just a cop-out meant to keep the delusion going. Medicine keeps people alive and I'd be less cynical to prayer if you could at least test it.
.....situations where people around you are praying?
I recently attended my husband's daughter's wedding. At the end of the ceremony, the minister asked everybody to bow their heads while he said (a very long) prayer. I did not bow my head (I never do in these types of situations). Probably nobody noticed, but I wouldn't have cared if they had.
I know some atheists, out of respect, will bow their heads just to go along. But I find that I just can't do this. I find prayer to be useless, and I don't want to be fake.
What do you all think?
I remember going with a friend's mother to church when they had the bread and grapejuice and not partaking and I never heard from her again. No more invites to church.
I really think it depends upon the situation. When I think back I wish I had brought some cheese for the crackers and partook. Not really. I didn't want to go in the first place, and I should have said no.
It think it also depends upon whether you want these people's friendships or not. For example if I were in a club and there were all Christians that prayed before a meal I may bow my head. Christians can be very rejecting. People also ask me to pray for someone, and I just say that I will or that I will have them on my mind.
Get off your high horse. My response was to atheist questions and supposed refutations. No proselytizing involved. Believe what you want . . . it is of no import to me.
I am not on a high horse, I am simply stating what is in the sticky post in this Atheism and Agnosticism forum. This is not the place to try and come to convert someone to your thinking that is against what the forum stands for.
No, it is useless and in many cases detrimental to the persons health.
Only if it is foolishly used to replace medical treatment. All that can be done medically should continue to be done. There is zero detriment to adding prayer . . . but public prayer is useless and such publc display is seldom a sign of sincerity. Piety is no guarantor of sincerity or genuine belief in the power of prayer either. Specifying which outcome you want from prayer doesn't work. Specifying that the desired outcome be what is best for the patient does. Finding sincere believers who truly care about the welfare of the patient is difficult. Actually . . . the Christian forum has very sincere prayer warriors . . . but their lack of connection with the patient would make them less than ideal.
I am not trying to convert or proselytize anyone . . . I just know that prayer can be very beneficial for the patient under the right conditions regardless of the final outcome.
Quote:
There is a reason I mention loving mother of two, my mom has been battling cancer for almost seven years now. She is a devout christian, the people who pray for her are very pious and the only significant change in her condition has been the cancer no longer responding to the chemotherapy. Family members pray for her to get better by winter, she doesn't, so my mom becomes stressed. They pray so that she gets better by summer, she doesn't, so my mom becomes more stressed. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if people prayed in private but for some reason they need to parade it as if they were giving billions to charity.
Tell me that your god operates under impossibly strict conditions but I don't buy it. Prayer doesn't work and every excuse is just a cop-out meant to keep the delusion going. Medicine keeps people alive and I'd be less cynical to prayer if you could at least test it.
(She is being operated later on this month)
My heart goes out to you coosjoaquin. Seems rather strange to be operating after seven years. That is usually a much earlier option because of the danger of metastasis. Was there a period of remission?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
