City of Atlanta becoming more residential? (Roswell, Franklin: condo, schools, contractors)

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I agree with most of what you are saying, and it will be a big challenge in the next few years for all cities to adjust to this new paradigm...especially the New Yorks and Chicagos of the world. I do think though that the prediction of the death of the massive CBD is a bit premature. A lot of professions depend on in person interaction that telecommuting (even via video) doesn't really solve.

I never predicted the "death of the massive CBD"- I just said that it's not a necessity to many of the firms that used to require it. Yes, there will always be some companies/industries that need face-to-face interaction, but it's not as common as it used to be. My point, overall, is that even without the current recession, popping up office building after office building in downtown, midtown and Buckhead was an absurd proposition, since they're not going to be in such high demand in the future as business practices change.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

I never predicted the "death of the massive CBD"- I just said that it's not a necessity to many of the firms that used to require it. Yes, there will always be some companies/industries that need face-to-face interaction, but it's not as common as it used to be. My point, overall, is that even without the current recession, popping up office building after office building in downtown, midtown and Buckhead was an absurd proposition, since they're not going to be in such high demand in the future as business practices change.

Never said you did, but a lot circles are using a lot of the same reasoning you were to say that the "downtown" concept in big cities is dying. I should have clarified more.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

Understood- but midtown, Buckhead, etc., all suffer for the same reason- there's no need to pay the high rents for those areas anymore for a large number of firms that might have had to call those areas home in the past. When I said "downtown" I was speaking generically- not about the specific area we call "downtown Atlanta".

Right, I thought that's what you meant.

Interestingly enough, there was an article in the paper today about a large business moving from Alpharetta down to the Terminus complex because they want a higher profile in the city. The head guy was quoted as saying they also thought this location would help them recruit "the kind of employees we're looking for."

I believe one of other big Terminus tenants (a law firm) earlier made a similar comment about why they were moving intown from the Vinings area.

Nowadays, I'd have to guess that rent intown isn't a whole lot more than it is in the suburbs.

Actually, they need both to do well. Restaurants that cater only to residents won't have much of a lunch crowd, and I was referring to businesses that support businesses- not residents- places like office supply stores, small accounting firms, etc.

Yep, an optimal mix would provide both. My guess is that part of the reason office dependent areas like downtown suffered in the past is because they lost their residential base. The increasingly residential character of the city should help correct that.

The report shows that the third fastest housing growth occurred in NPU-M, which is downtown, behind only NPU-B (Buckhead) and NPU-E (Midtown)

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by arjay57

The report shows that the third fastest housing growth occurred in NPU-M, which is downtown, behind only NPU-B (Buckhead) and NPU-E (Midtown)

Funny you bring that up, but over the last 10 years I have lived in all three.

-2003 lived Downtown

2003-2006 lived in Midtown

2006-current live in Buckhead near phipps (npu-b).

I think I need to start moving around to some other NPUs. I'm a good luck charm!

[arjay57]

I think this is a really fascinating chart. It shows how in one decade the city went from being primarily a place for work to a mainly residential one.

[MisterNY]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Funny you bring that up, but over the last 10 years I have lived in all three.

-2003 lived Downtown

2003-2006 lived in Midtown

2006-current live in Buckhead near phipps (npu-b).

I think I need to start moving around to some other NPUs. I'm a good luck charm!

What are NPUs?

[readyset]

Originally Posted by arjay57

No, I don't think they're linked in any direct causative sense. However, the effect would seem to make the city substantially more residential in character.

Nothing wrong with that of course. As the saying goes, growth typically follows the pattern of rooftops, retail and then jobs.

That's how suburbia became so massive -- historically, the suburbs siphoned off population by offering a higher quality of life. Now, the city has an opportunity to create a quality of life that's sufficient to draw people back. In my opinion that should be the focus of planning in the coming years.

That's actually not the saying at all. I don't know where people get this idea that residential is what lures business and creates major cities.

According to BLS there is no other factor that causes migration and growth than jobs.

Office space = jobs not residential. Residential = bedroom communities dependent on jobs.

Now I'm not saying that its not a good thing for more people to live in a city, but there is no other catalyst that even comes close like jobs, particularly office jobs and the office space to be dominant at a city's core.

Do you really think Atlanta would have reached its status if it was just some residential community? That it would lure businesses based off that? Does it work for Bronx or Brooklyn or are they just built up with housing and there because they are dependent on Manhattan, the largest office market in the country?

Do you really think condos and apartments are a better growth catalyst than Coca Cola, Suntrust, Delta, CNN or UPS? Will the condo board build the "World of Condo fees" or something? Expand beyond what it is and create more jobs, and income?

People come to Atlanta because it's a strong job market with lots of big companies and a large office/job market not because of the condos or apartments.

The state is business friendly that's, quite frankly its biggest asset.

Cities are about trade and commerce first, that's what they're built on and that's what makes them destinations.

First Office space/jobs, then Residential, then Retail last. That is the order.

[johnatl]

Originally Posted by MisterNY

What are NPUs?

Neighborhood Planning Units.

[MisterNY]

Originally Posted by johnatl

Neighborhood Planning Units.

Thanks.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by readyset

That's actually not the saying at all. I don't know where people get this idea that residential is what lures business and creates major cities.

According to BLS there is no other factor that causes migration and growth than jobs.

Office space = jobs not residential. Residential = bedroom communities dependent on jobs.

Now I'm not saying that its not a good thing for more people to live in a city, but there is no other catalyst that even comes close like jobs, particularly office jobs and the office space to be dominant at a city's core.

Do you really think Atlanta would have reached its status if it was just some residential community? That it would lure businesses based off that? Does it work for Bronx or Brooklyn or are they just built up with housing and there because they are dependent on Manhattan, the largest office market in the country?

Do you really think condos and apartments are a better growth catalyst than Coca Cola, Suntrust, Delta, CNN or UPS? Will the condo board build the "World of Condo fees" or something? Expand beyond what it is and create more jobs, and income?

People come to Atlanta because it's a strong job market with lots of big companies and a large office/job market not because of the condos or apartments.

The state is business friendly that's, quite frankly its biggest asset.

Cities are about trade and commerce first, that's what they're built on and that's what makes them destinations.

First Office space/jobs, then Residential, then Retail last. That is the order.

Well, you may be right. I was just trying to figure out how to explain the fact that the city's employment is plummeting while it's population is growing faster than it has in decades.

My example was based on the way the suburbs grew. First you had hordes of people (90% of Atlantans) locate out there. Then retail sprung up all around to support them. (And of course the rise in population itself brings a lot of new jobs because people need schools, fire departments, grocery stores, etc.). The next thing you know, businesses start locating there because it's closer to their employee base and workers typically want to be closer to their jobs.

As to the city of Atlanta being a bedroom community, what's wrong with that? Already most residents (58%) go to work somewhere outside the city yet most people would probably agree that the city is in better shape than it has been in years.

And how would you account for the fact that many of our biggest employers and most prestigious corporations (Home Depot, UPS, Newell Rubbermaid, Cox) locate far from the city proper or on its distant edge (Delta)?