Design Your Own MARTA Expansion (Atlanta, Marietta: rank, commute to, expense)
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Since it is out of the service area, how is MARTA able to serve the Cobb Galleria? I know there are Cobb County Transit busses there, but they are a separate system.
The present proposal for the Clifton Corridor is Heavy Rail, but from the comments on the official site, there seems to be a push by MARTA or someone to switch to light rail which I believe would be a monumental mistake. A 2-3 mile light rail stub that only goes from Lindberg to Emory adds little if any value. The heavy rail proposal which goes from Doraville (Perimeter is also one of the proposals) to Emory will encourage non-transit dependent to use it as they will have fewer transfers.
Well.. the present proposal is still in the Alternative Analysis phase. The TSPLOST is tying the money to the outcome of that Alternative Analysis already started by MARTA.
Before TSPLOST there was a lot of sway towards LRT to lower cost (make it more possible) and to simply continue the route all the way to the East line.
The HRT alignments does not go past Emory. Several of the proposed LRT alignments do, since they have more flexibility for tight turns, on street operations, and crossing streets.
If anything I think MARTA (outside the Alternative Analysis they are conducting) publicly pushed the idea of a HRT connection when they realized there was outside funding opportunity through TSPLOST, which is probably why people think the current official proposals are for HRT.
Before TSPLOST I thought the Alternative Analysis was already moving in the direction LRT.
My two cents from that aside... I think the corridor will be fine with LRT. The reason why is the corridor is so short and the station spacing is close enough together there isn't much in the way of time savings in using HRT vs. LRT. (aslong as they build LRT via the CSX rail alignment, which is proposed) I also don't think ridership numbers in the corridor will demand the extra capacity of HRT gives over LRT.
The main benefit to HRT tracks... is night train routes. When the North line only operates between North Springs and Lindbergh they could make a night train that goes from North Springs to Emory instead and potentially save a tiny amount on operations, rather than run two separate trains at night. It would also offer one corridor of transfer-free travel.
I also don't like the current LRT alignment south/east of Emory. They are having is meander too much to be useful for people travelling to Emory. It is a good route for redevelopment potential, but I think the corridor is best served by a LRT option turning into a Clairmont Ave. Streetcar the last mile or two into Decatur, but there was public concern to that. I'd even push for a 3 block tunnel in Downtown Decatur and have the terminal station right at the Decatur MARTA station. It is good for commuters and I would think it would be great for Decatur and Emory students alike.
MARTA serves Cumberland Galleria as a destination center for their customers. It is a calculated decision they made, but don't have to make.
The main benefit to the Marietta St alignment has less to do with serving Marietta St. and more to do with ferrying commuters downtown w/o a transfer to the N/S line.
That is really a huge benefit when you lose 25-40% of ridership with each transfer.
Unless its just concerns about racial undertones and resistance because of that, I don't see why an extension of the Bankside line isn't being seriously explored. That line has very little reason to exist currently as it only serves 1 unique station.
Well...You're right about transfers.... the reason the Marietta St. route doesn't have as much push... It would turn into a situation where the LRT runs in-street those final miles as I understand it. It would slow down at the end. Whereas 17th street has a transit only lane ready for LRT tracks to be put into place.
So you have a choice in speed, but also a choice of destination... Do you serve downtown transfer free? or midtown Atlantic Station transfer free? Both destinations would attract Cobb commuters.
I think the reason why the Bankhead extension isn't explored has less to do with racial undertones, but more to do with picking the technology that will eventually go all the way through Cobb to Kennesaw. In the long-run LRT is just much cheaper, flexible, and easier to fund through the whole corridor. However, that does come with drawbacks. The other interesting thing about the rail alignment the Bankhead route uses... there isn't much places to provide service (inside the Perimter), because the alignment terminates into the huge rail yards just north of Bankhead and it would be hard to route to Cumberland, which is the major destination center the corridor is trying to reach from both sides.
Everyone should check these updates out carefully: (I've been out of town and I'm just now seeing these ) MARTA > About Marta > Planning
you click on each concept type (HRT vs LRT) see the alignments, but directly compare the separate costs. You can really get a good sense for how they would build it and how much it would cost in each scenario.
y'all, i can understand not liking the portion of my track that goes through mechanicsville and the braves stadium— and i can see how light rail or additional infill stations could solve the transportation problem there.
but the marietta street artery, as someone called it, is a major transportation dead zone— although the stations are *technically* close, such as the north avenue station and the georgia tech station, i don't know if y'all are familiar with the area as much as i am— the routes to the other side of the downtown connector are incredibly pedestrian unfriendly.
as for the castleberry hill station, ever tried to get around the "gulch" to the garnett street station? hell of a walk and honestly not too safe after dark.
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The main benefit to the Marietta St alignment has less to do with serving Marietta St. and more to do with ferrying commuters downtown w/o a transfer to the N/S line.
this seems to be more your opinion about the track as it pertains to this discussion rather than any official documentation about the purpose of the track.
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Tunneling a multi-billion dollar heavy rail line 0.3 - 0.7 miles parallel to the existing line is a waste and doesn't add much connectivity.
With an unlimited budget, your plan would be great, but we have to prioritize our transportation efforts to maximize returns.
...which is why the track i proposed as almost entirely above ground and on existing railbeds.
two more things: first of all no one has commented on the importance of having direct connectivity with the brookwood amtrak station, which, as far as i know, only my track proposes. this alone would increase ridership on MARTA, especially by tourists, exponentially. the option to be able to ride by rail into atlanta and ride straight downtown on a train would make many coming into the atlanta area choose that over taking a plane and renting a car.
secondly, i don't see anyone jumping all over cqholt's plan as they are mine. there are plenty of problems with that plan, but i'm not jumping all over it because there are some good aspects to it as well!
it seems instead of constructive criticism to the plan, to improve it, which i am totally open to, everyone is trashing my plan completely. that kind of dialogue is both closed-minded and destructive to the argument as a whole. we have options. our plans are not "mutually exclusive". wouldn't it be nice if we could consolidate our plans and present them to MARTA? unfortunately, that isn't going to happen with this kind of negative dialogue!
y'all, i can understand not liking the portion of my track that goes through mechanicsville and the braves stadium— and i can see how light rail or additional infill stations could solve the transportation problem there.
but the marietta street artery, as someone called it, is a major transportation dead zone— although the stations are *technically* close, such as the north avenue station and the georgia tech station, i don't know if y'all are familiar with the area as much as i am— the routes to the other side of the downtown connector are incredibly pedestrian unfriendly.
as for the castleberry hill station, ever tried to get around the "gulch" to the garnett street station? hell of a walk and honestly not too safe after dark.
this seems to be more your opinion about the track as it pertains to this discussion rather than any official documentation about the purpose of the track.
...which is why the track i proposed as almost entirely above ground and on existing railbeds.
two more things: first of all no one has commented on the importance of having direct connectivity with the brookwood amtrak station, which, as far as i know, only my track proposes. this alone would increase ridership on MARTA, especially by tourists, exponentially. the option to be able to ride by rail into atlanta and ride straight downtown on a train would make many coming into the atlanta area choose that over taking a plane and renting a car.
secondly, i don't see anyone jumping all over cqholt's plan as they are mine. there are plenty of problems with that plan, but i'm not jumping all over it because there are some good aspects to it as well!
it seems instead of constructive criticism to the plan, to improve it, which i am totally open to, everyone is trashing my plan completely. that kind of dialogue is both closed-minded and destructive to the argument as a whole. we have options. our plans are not "mutually exclusive". wouldn't it be nice if we could consolidate our plans and present them to MARTA? unfortunately, that isn't going to happen with this kind of negative dialogue!
I clicked (and I think the other poster did too) your link to your idea. You showed a rather large tunnel going under Tech's campus, home park, and Atlantic Station.
Also, in regards to the Marietta St corridor. You conveniently didn't quote my comment about the rail beds and the GT as barriers at how thin the corridor is. While of course, part of what I say is opinion (as is what you post here as well), but the part about how narrow that corridor is... it not opinion. There isn't much land between the GT campus and the rail beds to the west. It isn't that I'm not interested in transit here or think the area is undeserving or worthless... its just with limited funds it becomes a lower priority and cheaper options become more viable.
This is the Marietta ST corridor atlanta, ga - Google Maps
It is very narrow between downtown and 10th st.
The city's initial street car plans for 10th and 14th streets and North Ave. would cover alot of the spaces north and south of this narrow corridor already.
So yes... it is my opinion it is not worth the cost of running a LRT or HRT line N-S across the Marietta St. corridor or GT for that matter, especially in lou of other cheaper ideas (streetcar/enhanced-frequent bus). However, it is not an opinion that stretch is very narrow.
Also, be careful what you are saying. There are alot of smart people here. Only about 1/4 of your plan is using railbeds. It is also using rail-beds that are heavily traveled, congested, and have little extra room on the side. The other problem is these are routes that are heavily used for any future commuter or regional/state rail lines. That is a big issue to overcome that would probably lead to the need for tunneling, especially near the GWCC.
However, you have presented very valid and important concerns and problems... especially with Castleberry Hill and the Gulch. However, I must ask... are we best off spending the money to create a costly parallel line very close to the Garnett Station or could the money be better spent to create pedestrian and bike trail connections to Garnett? (and try to make the neighborhoods be more seamless and hide the gulch more).
As for cqholt... to be honest... I jsut got back intown after a really long business trip, which means I've missed a few of the other proposals. The reaon you are drawing comments is you have created a very detail and specific proposal. Which... in many ways is wonderful. I'm so glad you did it. It is things like this that stir people's imaginations and conversations. But... that doesn't make every detailed proposal infallible or something everyone will love.
I want to make one comment really quick on the extension to Turner Field (even if just by a small spur). MARTA actually asked for this on the TSPLOST. I just wanted to go away from this particular plan, but broaden the discussion on this subject. the Braves shuttle is somewhat of a money-marker for MARTA... and I say sort of carefully. MARTA always had that funding cap between operations vs. capital expenditures. MARTA loses a slightly amount of money funding the capital resources for running the shuttles (aka signage + wear and tear on capital goods... buses), but they make more money than the operations costs! This means by running the shuttle they can ever so slightly fatten their operations budget.
The thing about rail... vs buses... Rail trains when there is heavy passenger demand... are much more expensive to build (capital), but the operations per passenger are cheaper. If MARTA can ever build a small rail spur to Turner Field, they might be able to cut their operations costs of the Braves shuttle even more and make more money for their operations budget. I suspect this is why it was on MARTA's wish list for TSPLOST (although I don't have a resource to back this us... just an educated suspicion).
With this in mind I don't think a spur to Turner Field is all that bad of an idea, especially if we can promote development of a nice urban neighborhood around the stadium. I always wanted to have a stadium like Wrigley with all the sports bars and eating places around the ball park where the presence of baseball affects the neighborhood more than just sheer amounts of car traffic.
So I like elements of your plan. I also like the idea of moving East Line trains north. I have been a proponent on here for moving some East Line trains seamlessly to the North line to promote ridership between central Dekalb, Midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter. Taking away the need for a transfer in the busiest part of town will make riding transit more affective for some potential riders.
So don't think we are jumping on you so much... we are just picking through the details of what we like... don't like. Like I said... the more details there are... the more opinions there are too, but the more discussion we will get as well
okay, thank you— this post was much more helpful than any previous post. i understand your concerns about the marietta st corridor— but i'm not sure what you mean when you say the corridor is narrow and isn't well served by a track.
i mean, if you look at a map, you can see there are a lot of industrial and commercial buildings along marietta street that form a thin corridor— but that isn't what the track i proposed is serving, really— it's serving the heavy amount of traffic that goes in and out of the georgia tech campus. i know on the map that it may look like it's a quiet residential area, but there is major traffic that goes through the tech campus that leaves the area terribly backed up for hours at a time, every day of the week. do you remember when they rebuilt the 17th, 14th, and 10th exits on the downtown connector a few years ago? it was primarily to redirect heavy traffic in this corridor— and there is a lot of it. i could look up traffic studies and population density charts and all of this stuff, but i don't know if all that is necessary— just drive through the neighbourhood next january on friday at rush hour and you will see what i'm talking about. it's worse when there's a game on the GA tech campus, because then you have event traffic in addition to the already congested roads.
i know it may not *look* like a high-traffic area on the aerial view because it looks green, but really, the high-traffic area is mostly the georgia tech campus and not so much marietta street— much of marietta street is parking lots, and while it does get some traffic, the entire area encompassed by the rail on the west side, the downtown connector on the east, and 17th street on the north, is really a major congestion area.
i'm not very familiar with the south cobb area, so the idea that the concept 3 idea of running a direct rail from there to downtown is to benefit the commuters may well be a reality. but to suggest that it is the only, or even the primary reason for running service to that area considering the traffic problems that exist there is entirely unrealistic, especially when if the cobb commuters were the primary problem, they could just link that line to the north/south line along 17th street and have the train continue south, instead of building an entirely new rail there, which is what was suggested in concept 3.
my main point is, despite the fact that the area may *seem* directly accessible by MARTA on the other side of the downtown connector, it most certainly is not, and surely the traffic in the area will contest to that.
part of planning tracks is knowing how to read maps and knowing the technical jargon, but the other part of the equation is being familiar with the neighbourhood— and it is increasingly obvious that most people who are protesting this line are really unfamiliar with the amount of traffic going through this corridor.
I want to make one comment really quick on the extension to Turner Field (even if just by a small spur). MARTA actually asked for this on the TSPLOST. I just wanted to go away from this particular plan, but broaden the discussion on this subject. the Braves shuttle is somewhat of a money-marker for MARTA... and I say sort of carefully. MARTA always had that funding cap between operations vs. capital expenditures. MARTA loses a slightly amount of money funding the capital resources for running the shuttles (aka signage + wear and tear on capital goods... buses), but they make more money than the operations costs! This means by running the shuttle they can ever so slightly fatten their operations budget.
The thing about rail... vs buses... Rail trains when there is heavy passenger demand... are much more expensive to build (capital), but the operations per passenger are cheaper. If MARTA can ever build a small rail spur to Turner Field, they might be able to cut their operations costs of the Braves shuttle even more and make more money for their operations budget. I suspect this is why it was on MARTA's wish list for TSPLOST (although I don't have a resource to back this us... just an educated suspicion).
With this in mind I don't think a spur to Turner Field is all that bad of an idea, especially if we can promote development of a nice urban neighborhood around the stadium. I always wanted to have a stadium like Wrigley with all the sports bars and eating places around the ball park where the presence of baseball affects the neighborhood more than just sheer amounts of car traffic.
The cost of the Turner Field line was about the cost of a new stadium, which the Braves will likely want us to pay for in about 10 years. It would be a better deal to simply build a new stadium downtown.
The only way the Turner stub makes sense is if it gets extended, perhaps to Grant Park and East Atlanta. However, that would conflict with the love affair the inner city group has with light rail and hatred for heavy rail (Virginia Highlands people fought Amtrak down the Beltline in their area saying it was incompatible with the neighborhood-forgetting that the Beltline exists because trains were compatible with the neighborhood for decades). Dekalb wants something in the I-20 corridor which this could be the start of. That's what's so ridiculous about the TSPLOST is that they threw in all these projects, sometimes conflicting, without any overall vision.
The cost of the Turner Field line was about the cost of a new stadium, which the Braves will likely want us to pay for in about 10 years. It would be a better deal to simply build a new stadium downtown.
The only way the Turner stub makes sense is if it gets extended, perhaps to Grant Park and East Atlanta. However, that would conflict with the love affair the inner city group has with light rail and hatred for heavy rail (Virginia Highlands people fought Amtrak down the Beltline in their area saying it was incompatible with the neighborhood-forgetting that the Beltline exists because trains were compatible with the neighborhood for decades). Dekalb wants something in the I-20 corridor which this could be the start of. That's what's so ridiculous about the TSPLOST is that they threw in all these projects, sometimes conflicting, without any overall vision.
Well... eh... your missing a few major things
-There is a major revenue stream with Turner Field. Every ball game, which there are many during a year, brings in tons of money to both the MARTA system and the pay lots around Turner Field. We are already paying huge operations and some capital costs to fund that shuttle. The ideas is if we can ever put down the capital costs to build that spur... they will save alot in operations and make more more money from people traveling to the ballpark
-Secondly, I fully acknowledge this is a way for MARTA to shift money from their capital fund to their operations fund, which is primarily only needed from the state law.
But we need to be more careful with this speaking loosely about hatred for heavy rail. I don't think people hate it. It is just really expensive and there are pros and cons to it as a technology.
For the beltline the whole concept was to use an old rail bed, so you don't have to make many tunnels or bridges, which lowers the cost. A heavy rail train (which is not the same as an Amtrak train or a commuter rail train). has a third rail that is powered. This means people can't walk across it. It is completely controlled access and can become a barrier for pedestrians, cyclists, and cars if it doesn't have a bridge or a tunnel.
The Beltline LRT option allows for more flexible use.... pedestrian crossings. Therefore the rails can run in the ground and don't have to be a barrier for pedestrians. The other advantage LRT has is it can run on the street. When all is said and done people will be able to ride to MARTA and transfer -or- they can skip the transfer all together and just ride the LRT on streetcar tracks the final mile or two into midtown or downtown.
The reason the neighborhoods on the Beltline complained about future Amtrak trains (which was actually for the High speed rail proposals and NOT HRT trains (aka subway, el, etc..) is that it would prevent them from being able to run LRT (or for the matter HRT or streetcars) on the beltline. In other words it would create a neighborhood barrier and make it much more expensive to create urban transit there (and lower the chance it happens). It would make it harder to create pedestrian crossings in an area that is being rebuilt on the premise there are parks and green way trails connecting all the neighborhoods.
And really quickly so there is no confusion to others... all of the projects you mentioned that were conflicting are not on the TSPLOST. The Amtrak route is not on TSPLOST and never was. MARTA asked for funding to reach Turner Field, however that didn't make the TSPLOST tax list.
Most of the transit projects on the TSPLOST list have some sort of merit to what is on the Concept 3 plan, so there is a unifying vision for what is being funded. It is just going to take much longer than 10 years to come close to building it all, which is ok... because we are planning 30 to 40 years out aslong as we can start funding it not little bit over time.
Everyone should check these updates out carefully: (I've been out of town and I'm just now seeing these ) MARTA > About Marta > Planning
you click on each concept type (HRT vs LRT) see the alignments, but directly compare the separate costs. You can really get a good sense for how they would build it and how much it would cost in each scenario.
If you look at the trips tab, you see that the heaviest # of trips to Emory come from NE Dekalb & Gwinnet and SE Dekalb. That's why I think HRT is better. You can connect to Doraville. I think eventually it should connect to Avondale (and not Decatur which is inconvenient for SE Dekalb people). There is industrial area that should make it easy to get ROW except for the last mile from N. Dekalb and Scott to N. Dekalb and Clairmont. Connecting eventually to Avondale could also make it an extension of the Bankside line, instead of a totally new line, which would add some efficiencies and greater connections.
Streets are very congested in the area. LRT will make a bad situation much worse and will be more expensive, less flexible and provide worse service than a bus (which can stop more frequently and doesn't have to serve only that corridor-it could be express in that corridor but be part of a longer route.) So I prefer HRT as far as it can go and then bus to Avondale with the bus eventually replaced by HRT.
If you look at the trips tab, you see that the heaviest # of trips to Emory come from NE Dekalb & Gwinnet and SE Dekalb. That's why I think HRT is better. You can connect to Doraville. I think eventually it should connect to Avondale (and not Decatur which is inconvenient for SE Dekalb people). There is industrial area that should make it easy to get ROW except for the last mile from N. Dekalb and Scott to N. Dekalb and Clairmont. Connecting eventually to Avondale could also make it an extension of the Bankside line, instead of a totally new line, which would add some efficiencies and greater connections.
Streets are very congested in the area. LRT will make a bad situation much worse and will be more expensive, less flexible and provide worse service than a bus (which can stop more frequently and doesn't have to serve only that corridor-it could be express in that corridor but be part of a longer route.) So I prefer HRT as far as it can go and then bus to Avondale with the bus eventually replaced by HRT.
one point and two questions
point
-MARTA has pretty much said HRT will not be able to go south/southeast from Emory. The right of way and engineering costs would just be way to much. If they go with HRT... it will be a spur between Lindbergh and Emory as presented and that is it.
question
- Given the cost differences... (actually total it up and compare) and the fact that HRT really won't operate much faster between Lindbergh and Emory... Is it really worth the extra cost?
(For me, it just seems like alot of extra expense and not much more advantage...)
-Given that MARTA hasn't put HRT going south/east of Emory on the table at all and the only way they will push forward that way is LRT... would you still rather it be HRT, even if that means no East line, Decatur, N. Decatur or Avondale connection?
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