Ten Point Plan for Atlantic Station (Atlanta, Buckhead: houses, bus, wealthy)

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I think quite the opposite actually. One big problem we have here with increasing pedestrian activity is not our urban form. That may sound crazy, and down a few streets it is, but Atlanta (especially Central Atlanta) is completely navigable by foot and by transit. I say this with the knowledge of several decades worth of living in this town and not owning a car, so I vouch for it's possibility.

What keeps a lot more people from doing it is one thing: Free and Cheap parking. If you go to a lot of other cities, it is almost impossible to park in their central districts. If it isn't lack of space it is that space costs an arm and a leg. What motivation will people have to get out their cars when they can always find a lot that's free or less than $5 to park in?

Make parking more expensive, out law surface lots, and we'll be on our way in the right direction.

I may not have been clear, waronxmas, because I believe we're saying the same thing.

"Free" parking does not help a city urbanize. To the contrary, it encourages reliance upon cars as the dominant (and often virtually exclusive) mode of transportation. There's nothing wrong with cars per se, but a city needs a balance with other means of getting around.

See my post here, with links to articles on the "free" parking problem.


Why Free Parking Comes at a Price - NYTimes.com

High Cost of Free Parking: Donald C. Shoup: Books

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I may not have been clear, waronxmas, because I believe we're saying the same thing.

"Free" parking does not help a city urbanize. To the contrary, it encourages reliance upon cars as the dominant (and often virtually exclusive) mode of transportation. There's nothing wrong with cars per se, but a city needs a balance with other means of getting around.

See my post here, with links to articles on the "free" parking problem.


Why Free Parking Comes at a Price - NYTimes.com

High Cost of Free Parking: Donald C. Shoup: Books

Ah, yes, after reading it again we are


The complaints though, that's going to happen. Look at what happened when ParkAtlanta came around and actually started enforcing meter/parking violations where it was spotty at times.

That is the difference maker in Atlanta. People make all kinds of excuses up so they can continue to drive their cars. If it is made more difficult/expensive then more people will use their legs more. A good example is to look at what happens whenever there is a big event occurring in an intown neighborhood. Most people will either take MARTA or park far away (making it necessary to walk for all of their activities) rather than pay the jacked up prices for parking. How about we keep prices for parking jacked up.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

The complaints though, that's going to happen. Look at what happened when ParkAtlanta came around and actually started enforcing meter/parking violations where it was spotty at times.

Yep.

I don't hate cars, by the way -- they are absolutely a part of the urban transportation mix. Cities just need balance, so that cars don't overwhelm pedestrians, cyclists and public transit.

And while there really isn't anything such as "free" parking, I don't favor Gestapo-like enforcement. At least not unless I'm in charge of it.

[Hobgob]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I think quite the opposite actually. One big problem we have here with increasing pedestrian activity is not our urban form. That may sound crazy, and down a few streets it is, but Atlanta (especially Central Atlanta) is completely navigable by foot and by transit. I say this with the knowledge of several decades worth of living in this town and not owning a car, so I vouch for it's possibility.

What keeps a lot more people from doing it is one thing: Free and Cheap parking. If you go to a lot of other cities, it is almost impossible to park in their central districts. If it isn't lack of space it is that space costs an arm and a leg. What motivation will people have to get out their cars when they can always find a lot that's free or less than $5 to park in?

Make parking more expensive, out law surface lots, and we'll be on our way in the right direction.

Those other cities also have commuter rail and more sidewalks/bike lanes then Atlanta. We need to increase the rail, density, transit reliability and sidewalk infrastructor before we try to get people walking everywhere likes it's Sanfransico or NYC.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Hobgob

Those other cities also have commuter rail and more sidewalks/bike lanes then Atlanta. We need to increase the rail, density, transit reliability and sidewalk infrastructor before we try to get people walking everywhere likes it's Sanfransico or NYC.

Let's remember that we're talking about Atlantic Station. It's easily accessible by train, bus, bike or on foot. And within AS there are terrific pedestrian amenities. You can walk anywhere, just like you would in NYC or San Francisco.

No one needs to drive to visit Atlantic Station or to navigate around while there. Those who elect to visit by car are doing so as a matter of personal choice. So what's the big deal with charging a couple of bucks for parking?

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Hobgob

Those other cities also have commuter rail and more sidewalks/bike lanes then Atlanta. We need to increase the rail, density, transit reliability and sidewalk infrastructor before we try to get people walking everywhere likes it's Sanfransico or NYC.

There are plenty of PT within the city of Atlanta and most of the inner suburbs to make living without a car possible. The biggest sour point is the lack of a secondary mass transit ring, but that will be fixed with the Beltline. Until then, planning ahead and knowing all of the available options will be your best option. Also, implementing this plan would make the most sense in Central Atlanta (i.e. Downtown, Midtown, and surrounding neighborhoods) and the central areas of Buckhead centered around Peachtree road. Obviously, not every neighborhood needs this as many neighborhoods in the city have no purpose but residential even though few of those places do not have public transit connections.

What other cities have is irrelevant.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Hobgob

Those other cities also have commuter rail and more sidewalks/bike lanes then Atlanta.

One more thing. I'm guessing you have not experienced it before as it seems you not familiar with how commuter rail would differ from a subway rapid transit system like MARTA.

-Most commuter rail system only operate during certain parts of the day (either during rush hour periods or from early morning to late afternoon)

-Stops are infrequent

-Fares are usually distance based and significantly higher than city level PT

AND (this is the most important point)

-Have one purpose and one purpose only: To get people to and from work from surrounding suburbs

In essence, you can think of them as buses on rails that go from a few central points to one main point downtown. In other words: It's not a replacement for having a car. People will drive to the station, get on the train, go to work downtown or which ever cbd they need to go to, work, get back on the train, get off at the station nearest their house, get in their car, drive home.

This should sound familiar because it is exactly the same type of service that GRTA and MARTA park and rides provide in Atlanta. Only with buses. Now, you will get no argument out of me that Atlanta needs commuter rail because it can move a lot more people in faster time than a bus ever could, but remove any notion that it would some how living carfree in the suburbs possible in any easy way.

[Hobgob]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

There are plenty of PT within the city of Atlanta and most of the inner suburbs to make living without a car possible. The biggest sour point is the lack of a secondary mass transit ring, but that will be fixed with the Beltline. Until then, planning ahead and knowing all of the available options will be your best option. Also, implementing this plan would make the most sense in Central Atlanta (i.e. Downtown, Midtown, and surrounding neighborhoods) and the central areas of Buckhead centered around Peachtree road. Obviously, not every neighborhood needs this as many neighborhoods in the city have no purpose but residential even though few of those places do not have public transit connections.

[b]What other cities have is irrelevant.[\B]

I was you who originally brought up other cities, do I need to quote you?

[Hobgob]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

One more thing. I'm guessing you have not experienced it before as it seems you not familiar with how commuter rail would differ from a subway rapid transit system like MARTA.

-Most commuter rail system only operate during certain parts of the day (either during rush hour periods or from early morning to late afternoon)

-Stops are infrequent

-Fares are usually distance based and significantly higher than city level PT

AND (this is the most important point)

-Have one purpose and one purpose only: To get people to and from work from surrounding suburbs

In essence, you can think of them as buses on rails that go from a few central points to one main point downtown. In other words: It's not a replacement for having a car. People will drive to the station, get on the train, go to work downtown or which ever cbd they need to go to, work, get back on the train, get off at the station nearest their house, get in their car, drive home.

This should sound familiar because it is exactly the same type of service that GRTA and MARTA park and rides provide in Atlanta. Only with buses. Now, you will get no argument out of me that Atlanta needs commuter rail because it can move a lot more people in faster time than a bus ever could, but remove any notion that it would some how living carfree in the suburbs possible in any easy way.

I like how you ignored sidewalks. I know what commuter rail is I just thought would make it easier to car free in the city.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Hobgob

I like how you ignored sidewalks. I know what commuter rail is I just thought would make it easier to car free in the city.

I like how you jump to an entirely different topic whilst ignoring what I wrote.

Where, praytell, are there sidewalk problems in the city of Atlanta? The only ones I can think of are in fringe neighborhoods in Western Buckhead, the far Southwest Side, the far end of Cascade, etc. Basically neighborhoods with big houses made for upper middle class to wealthy folks who would drive most likely no matter where they lived. They also maybe represent 5% of population, so the only reason someone would go there is if they lived there or were visiting someone they knew there. In other words it's irrelevant and not uncommon to have these types of areas abutting cities (other cities try to act like they don't have them, but they do.)

Anyway, let me stop my guessing. Care to give an example?