DOT Returns Revised Transportation Wish List to Atlanta Region (Douglas: assessment, airports)

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

I think this transit initiative should put forward both short- and long-term solutions. Short term, we need more and bigger roads. Long term, we need to develop the city inward to address transportation problems because it becomes progressively more difficult to efficiently connect sparsely populated sprawl.

I agree with that long-term goal. Question, though: Doesn't that short-term goal contradict it?

Originally Posted by K-SawDude

The penny tax proponents also need to explain that, just like in each suburban county, they have to fund projects in Atlanta that will get voters here to the polls. That doesn't mean it has to be the Beltline, specifically, but that seems like a project that will assist city residents, tourists, and even some commuters from the suburbs into the city (for work or shopping or play). So to me that seems as "regional" as any particular road-widening project within each individual county.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm certainly not voting for a tax that's almost entirely going to be roads. There's already a funding mechanism in place for that (gas tax), and politicians in this state have already been too cowardly to raise the darn tax themselves rather than drag all of us through all of this bickering. Personally, if the Beltline and/or Cobb train lines leave the list, I'm back to being an undecided-leaning-towards-NO vote.

And I think other transit advocates (among the public, not just the politicians and civil engineers) need to push back against these people complaining about EVERY. SINGLE. RAIL. PROPOSAL. They shouldn't get to have everything their way (roads, roads, roads) just because they're the loudest voice in the room.

Agreed. But we have to realize that some of those who are anti-transit are the very same people who shout, scream, and otherwise crash town halls. Now even if I strongly disagree with them, I just as strongly believe that they are entitled to those opinions...but NOT at the expense of aggressively drowning out their opponents points of view.

Originally Posted by bu2

As they say, its a local economic development project.

I'm not willing to be taxed to have 10% spent on a speculative economic development project that, if it even is beneficial, benefits only one area. $600 million is not insignificant.

I remember a few years ago when Concept 3, which was not too dissimilar to what they have going now, had some cost-benefit summaries of each proposed transit corridor. If they still had something like this, or they could get that well in advance of the vote, I think that could go a long way to addressing this concern.

Originally Posted by bu2

Atlanta is not united. Its got too many cities and counties and they all work only for their own ends, and the city of Atlanta is the worst of all.

There are also a bunch of corrupt, incompetent politicians. Other places figure out what they need, come up with a plan, figure out what $ they need and then sell it. Atlanta comes up with the $, then adds a wish list and tries to stuff it down people's throats with threats of doom and gloom.

I don't know anyplace that has done it the way Georgia has. Its just unbelievably incompetent and raises lots of red flags in anyone's mind who is the least bit suspicious of letting politicians have $.

If this referendum fails, that regionalism may well prove to be the biggest thing that kills it. Sigh, if we only had larger counties, maybe not even as big as the ones out west, but at least better than the tiny counties we have now. That just encourages the regionalism that, in the long run, helps no one.

[tonygeorgia]

Let me go over this again for you negative people. The bill will pass. Do you see that most of the Atlanta population is in the city of Atlanta, Cobb, Dekalb, Gwinnett, Fulton, and Clayton county? Do you see this? These are the people that choose to live near the city and most of these people want mass transit. Even if the counties like Cherokee doesnt want the tax it will still pass because they do not have the voting power. The voting power is in the city of Atlanta, Cobb, Dekalb, Gwinnett, Fulton, and Clayton county. Whoever think that this bill will not pass because of a few counties doesnt not have any common sense


By population

• Fulton (920,581)
• Gwinnett (805,321)
• DeKalb (691,893)
• Cobb (688,078)
• Clayton (259,424)
• Cherokee (214,346)
• Henry (203,922)
• Hall (179,684)
• Forsyth (175,511)
• Paulding (142,324)
• Douglas (132,403)
• Coweta (127,317)
• Bartow (100,157)
• Carroll (110,527)
• Fayette (106,567)
• Newton (99,958)
• Walton (83,768)

• Rockdale (85,215)
• Barrow (69,367)
• Spalding (64,073)
• )

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by jpatlanta

Yep he is a totallly shortsighted teabag idiot.

He we go with the dumb ass name calling.

YOU may disagree with him, but that doesn't make his reasoning less sound. If you actually took the time to read his reasons, there was concern that the initial grant would not be enough to complete the project, with no additional capital funding available. On top of that, there was no clear source of operational funding and no clear understanding of the ridership.

Try looking at it with an objective eye and with a logical business perspective. We have to stop this "train to nowhere" mentality that the the Dems seems to favor and now seems to be part of this TSPLOST. We cannot spend borrowed or taxed money with no clear understanding of the impact to budgets and from other operational costs. As we've seen in many cases, the initial capital estimates to build these things is never correct.

Discretion is often the better part of valor. The problem with the TSPLOST isn't transit or a tax, it's a really bad list of projects that seem to be targeted more for political reasons than to actually solve the problem of transportation.

[JPD]

Originally Posted by neil0311

He we go with the dumb ass name calling.

Bwah!

[Cameron H]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

I agree with that long-term goal. Question, though: Doesn't that short-term goal contradict it?

I would say there's tension between the two, but they're not necessarily contradictory. I think Atlanta needs roadway expansion and improvement to more efficiently serve its existing sprawl, right now. I don't think addressing the existing problem necessarily perpetuates it -- if you can alleviate the existing issues in the short-term while also offering a new long-term vision for smarter growth, that seems like a pretty good strategy.

And what's the alternative? You can try to strangle the existing sprawl with inadequate infrastructure and hope to force people into the city, but that seems suicidal.

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by bu2

Atlanta is not united. Its got too many cities and counties and they all work only for their own ends, and the city of Atlanta is the worst of all.

There are also a bunch of corrupt, incompetent politicians. Other places figure out what they need, come up with a plan, figure out what $ they need and then sell it. Atlanta comes up with the $, then adds a wish list and tries to stuff it down people's throats with threats of doom and gloom.

I don't know anyplace that has done it the way Georgia has. Its just unbelievably incompetent and raises lots of red flags in anyone's mind who is the least bit suspicious of letting politicians have $.

Probably more places than you suspect. This is an ongoing complaint on the Pittsburgh board where its county, Allegheny, has 130 municipalities with the entire county incorporated. There have been calls for consolidation but you can imagine how next to impossible that is. Incorporation of new municipalities is relatively easy but for some group to give up power to achieve consolidation? And likewise there are accusations of incompetent and corrupt politicians and the citizens are just as suspicious if not more.

Atlanta metro is or was different. Not many incorporated municipalities so most of the political wrangling occurred between counties. Pittsburgh and its primary suburbs are mostly contained in one county but any sense of unity is lost as it is fractured into numerous fiefdoms. But Atlanta now is starting to divide up into newly incorporated cities as well which might further complicate things. And as everyone knows, there is a strong push to create yet another county, Milton.

I think most people see that penny sales tax as just a ruse to get the suburbs to pay for MARTA's expansion, namely the Beltline. Politicians might have thought themselves clever to keep the Georgia 400 Toll in place long after the road was paid for but to a lot of people, including myself, it just shows that you can't trust the politicians when they assure you that "it is only temporary...we promise!".

[arjay57]

The Buckhead CID weighs in on this.

Will We Make an Investment in Our Future Prosperity?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MathmanMathman

What companies? I can't imagine why any company would view HSR between Tampa and Orlando as a contingency for a move. What value is it?

Agreed.

"I'm not investing in Orlando unless I can take a high speed train to Tampa?"

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

"I'm not investing in Orlando unless I can take a high speed train to Tampa?"

Say you were at Disney World on vacation and a business meeting came up in Tampa and you needed to get to there fast. Don't you think HSR would come in handy?

[jpatlanta]

Originally Posted by neil0311

He we go with the dumb ass name calling.

YOU may disagree with him, but that doesn't make his reasoning less sound. If you actually took the time to read his reasons, there was concern that the initial grant would not be enough to complete the project, with no additional capital funding available. On top of that, there was no clear source of operational funding and no clear understanding of the ridership.

Try looking at it with an objective eye and with a logical business perspective. We have to stop this "train to nowhere" mentality that the the Dems seems to favor and now seems to be part of this TSPLOST. We cannot spend borrowed or taxed money with no clear understanding of the impact to budgets and from other operational costs. As we've seen in many cases, the initial capital estimates to build these things is never correct.

Discretion is often the better part of valor. The problem with the TSPLOST isn't transit or a tax, it's a really bad list of projects that seem to be targeted more for political reasons than to actually solve the problem of transportation.

His reasoning is totally unsound and so are all the others who talk short term to save a few dollars without thinking of the longterm implications of our region having no form of transport other that the automobile.

Lets see how well FL does with its employment statistics with this clown in charge.