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That's why I posted a link showing how Atlanta ranks nationally in importance. Which isn't bad Atlanta's top 10 anyways.
I admit that I just did a quick scan through it, but I saw different data lists in that first post, and a few of them looked rather arbitrary. I personally wouldn't use it as a credible source.
Like I said earlier, these discussions often come down to a difference in opinions of what is "important". It's beating a dead horse, really.
I admit that I just did a quick scan through it, but I saw different data lists in that first post, and a few of them looked rather arbitrary. I personally wouldn't use it as a credible source.
Like I said earlier, these discussions often come down to a difference in opinions of what is "important". It's beating a dead horse, really.
I agree with the bottom but the top we just have to agree to disagree.
I agree with the bottom but the top we just have to agree to disagree.
All I'm essentially saying is that I wouldn't call those research results the end all and be all of most important cities lists. Those lists seem to revolve primarily around finance and advertisement, and some cities weren't even included in each study. Me, personally, I would factor in things like GMP and Fortune 500 companies, which it doesn't look like they did. There are different schools of thought.
Nothing for anyone to get their panties in a bunch over, though.
Let me start with the last point first. Detroit is an International metropolitan area. On one side of the Detroit River is the City of Detroit and on the other side of the city is the city of Windsor, Ontario Canada. None of Detroit’s MSA, CSA or urbanized area counts includes the Canadian side population. Thousands of people go back and forth for trade, business and pleasure each day. Adding the Canadian population to the Urban Area, MSA or CSA would up the counts about 300K. Canada is America largest trading partner and the Detroit-Windsor crossing is this America chief trade corridor via the Ambassador Bridge or the Tunnel that goes up under the river. So Again, the Detroit area or region, is international and is far more populated with people than people think or that official statistics reveal.
Again, the only way that Atlanta is more populated than Detroit is if one is looking at things OTHER than purely a population count in a similar sized area. All I am saying is that given the same size area, Detroit has more people. The only way that Atlanta has more people is if you draw borders of where to start and stop counting based upon where people drive. Hence, the proper way to phrase it is that Atlanta has more people outside of Fulton County, commuting to Fulton County than Detroit has people outside of Wayne County commuting to Wayne County. The principle reason for this is that Detroit is not an office based economy, but a manufacturing based economy. Also, the fact that massive disinvestment from the city, from the 70’s to 2000, pulled jobs from the city to the suburbs. Hence, people no longer needed to commute from suburbs to the city because most of Detroit’s jobs moved from the city to the suburbs.
Really, what commuting patterns represent is the vibrancy of the downtown. What draws a quarter or more of the people from outlying areas to commute to the city’s core is JOBS, CULTURE and entertainment. To the degree that a city can maintain a vibrant downtown, with jobs, shopping, culture and entertainment, relative to the suburbs, the more people in the suburbs will have to commute to the Core County and city. Hence, Atlanta’s downtown and job offerings is simply much more vibrant that downtown Detroit. Hence, people in outlying suburban areas of Detroit do not have to commute to the city. They can commute to Southfield, Troy or Dearborn, which together likely employs more people than Detroit. So again, MSA’s are based largely are commuting patterns and areas that have strong central business districts with a large concentration of jobs means more people will commute from outlying areas to the city. However, my point all along is that such a number is deceptive. It does not mean that there are more people living in the Atlanta geographic area than a similar sized Detroit geographic area. It ONLY means that more people in the Atlanta area commute downtown than people in the Detroit area commute downtown. It’s really a commuting count and not a pure population count.
I know Detroit has a cross border urban area with Windsor. And it Appears Detroit–Windsor to be the same population range as at Atlanta CSA, and Atlanta growing faster.
At this point your basically ignoring what I'm saying. A metro doesn't have to be "similar sized area" that called again "density" .....yes the Detroit area is denser,,, a denser place doesn't make it bigger. A metro region is define not only by development but by significant social activity. This determines what's the region is in the first place. You actually don't know does Windsor commuter rate is 25% to meet US standards. I know there commuters but I doubt 25% switch everyday. If a county is 100,000 that means 25,000 leave that county, to Fulton for work everyday.
Atlanta has more suburban CBDs than Detroit, a poster already pointed out that a significant number of Atlantans go the suburbs as well. And it doesn't matter a what type of economy there is. There's no special pleading. That mean Detroit is it's losing grip over it's MSA and could down size.
All I'm essentially saying is that I wouldn't call those research results the end all and be all of most important cities lists. Those lists seem to revolve primarily around finance and advertisement, and some cities weren't even included in each study. Me, personally, I would factor in things like GMP and Fortune 500 companies, which it doesn't look like they did. There are different schools of thought.
Nothing for anyone to get their panties in a bunch over, though.
That why I looking at several ranking rather than just one. But my point wasn't Atlanta is the best in something I was just pointing out Atlanta generally make top 10 or top 12 in most areas anyways. ATL may not be top 5 but Atlanta generally do well anyways. I don't see the point of trying to hind saying were 1# in the southeast. I'm mean Phoenix is number one in the American desert.
I know Detroit has a cross border urban area with Windsor. And it Appears Detroit–Windsor to be the same population range as at Atlanta CSA, and Atlanta growing faster.
At this point your basically ignoring what I'm saying. A metro doesn't have to be "similar sized area" that called again "density" .....yes the Detroit area is denser,,, a denser place doesn't make it bigger. A metro region is define not only by development but by significant social activity. This determines what's the region is in the first place. You actually don't know does Windsor commuter rate is 25% to meet US standards. I know there commuters but I doubt 25% switch everyday. If a county is 100,000 that means 25,000 leave that county, to Fulton for work everyday.
Atlanta has more suburban CBDs than Detroit, a poster already pointed out that a significant number of Atlantans go the suburbs as well. And it doesn't matter a what type of economy there is. There's no special pleading. That mean Detroit is it's losing grip over it's MSA and could down size.
I have nothing against the Detroit region but is not bigger than Atlanta. But it just denser than Atlanta, I don't why it so hard to accept that.
My friend I totally understand and accept the argument that you are making. Like I said before, I accept the official unemployment rate. It’s the U3 count. However, just because something is the “official” way something is done does not mean that it is infallible or precise. The government also has a U6 metric. The same is true for many things, like how the government calculates inflation, by excluding out things like energy and other things that hit people hard in the pocket books, but are not part of the “basket of goods” that is used to track the rate of inflation. Population counts, which come from formulas or methodologies formed by the Bureau Labor statistics via the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), are equally porous. They are not infallible.
There are many different ways to determine population counts, based upon the needs of those who need such numbers. All I have done is present an alternative metric, which is radial population. Radial population ignores commuting patterns, contiguous build up or any other factors (accept it only counts the US population if the radius includes a foreign country). The city of Atlanta and Detroit are both about 135 square miles. However, despite the loss of over half its peak population, the city of Detroit still has more people than the city of Atlanta proper. Then when one does a radius population count from the CBD, at EVERY mile increase there are more people in the area around Detroit than the same sized area around Atlanta. In other words, at 10,11,12,13,14, 15……..25,26,27……50,51,52……75,76, 77…100, there are MORE PEOPLE living the same sized circle than in Atlanta. Hence, the fact that it is more DENSE, at every equal radius means that is more POPULATED at every equal radius. Once you equalize the land area in comparison, being denser mathematically means that there is more people and there is no radius count that exists where Atlanta comes out having more people than Detroit.
What I am doing is presenting an alternate index or counting methodology that just looks at how many people live in an equal sized area. I agree that index you use shows Atlanta as having more people. All I am saying is that by a radial metric.....Detroit has more people. Atlanta has more people "IF"............you draw lines based upon commuting patterns or continous build up. When you take away the "IF's" and just look at how many people live in a similar sized area......Detroit has more people than Atlanta. That's all I am saying.
Its just my opinion that Atlanta is not YET, at top ten area. Does it want to be......YES. Will it be......eventually....but not now.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 03-05-2012 at 10:37 AM..
Can Atlanta really be classed with cities like Pheonix, Denver and Seattle? Ive always assumed it was a city with the same amount of offerings of a Houston or A Philly?
Has any of those cities hosted the Olympic games? Besides Philly, none of those cities have a true subway and neither have a direct connection to the airport. Atlanta is a national level, eg: LA, Chicago, Boston, Miami.
My friend I totally understand and accept the argument that you are making. Like I said before, I accept the official unemployment rate. It’s the U3 count. However, just because something is the “official” way something is done does not mean that it is infallible or precise. The government also has a U6 metric. The same is true for many things, like how the government calculates inflation, by excluding out things like energy and other things that hit people hard in the pocket books, but are not part of the “basket of goods” that is used to track the rate of inflation. Population counts, which come from formulas or methodologies formed by the Bureau Labor statistics via the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), are equally porous. They are not infallible.
There are many different ways to determine population counts, based upon the needs of those who need such numbers. All I have done is present an alternative metric, which is radial population. Radial population ignores commuting patterns, contiguous build up or any other factors (accept it only counts the US population if the radius includes a foreign country). The city of Atlanta and Detroit are both about 135 square miles. However, despite the loss of over half its peak population, the city of Detroit still has more people than the city of Atlanta proper. Then when one does a radius population count from the CBD, at EVERY mile increase there are more people in the area around Detroit than the same sized area around Atlanta. In other words, at 10,11,12,13,14, 15……..25,26,27……50,51,52……75,76, 77…100, there are MORE PEOPLE living the same sized circle than in Atlanta. Hence, the fact that it is more DENSE, at every equal radius means that is more POPULATED at every equal radius. Once you equalize the land area in comparison, being denser mathematically means that there is more people and there is no radius count that exists where Atlanta comes out having more people than Detroit.
What I am doing is presenting an alternate index or counting methodology that just looks at how many people live in an equal sized area. I agree that index you use shows Atlanta as having more people. All I am saying is that by a radial metric.....Detroit has more people. Atlanta has more people "IF"............you draw lines based upon commuting patterns or continous build up. When you take away the "IF's" and just look at how many people live in a similar sized area......Detroit has more people than Atlanta. That's all I am saying.
Its just my opinion that Atlanta is not YET, at top ten area. Does it want to be......YES. Will it be......eventually....but not now.
This has nothing to do with the unemployment rate, rate of inflation and etc. MSA are commuter rate base. A very bad unemployment rate is lets say 10% and up. The commuter rate is 25% base. It only take 25% of workers from point A to point B, for CSA 15%. More than 25% of a county are workers. Out of 85% to 90% of the workers of a county don't commute to meet the criteria WoW. If a high unemployment rate effect the commuter rate it doesn't deserve to be one metro. A county most have barely meet the commuter criteria in the first.
Your alternate index is call "DENSITY" That's Not new or a good indicator of a place size. That doesn't measure anything of outward growth, urban sprawl or anything in relation with causation. There doesn't suppose to be a radius count on things that grow out ward, because places don't sprawl equal. That's what your missing your not accepting some places should have more area than others, because they sprawl more.
Top in ten in what? because Atlanta is top 10 in a lot of things. Getting in the top 10 club is old and there really special about it. What a up hill battle is trying to pass the other top cities, Atlanta peers. The sad thing is I'am not even trying to boast but you seem to be strong on trying undermined Atlanta and, trying put Detroit over. Detroit peers are Seattle, Minneapolis and Phoenix.
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