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I'm thinking that maybe we don't need a different type of transit system. I don't know enough about transit to describe it accurately, but I'm thinking a series of hubs in various population/employment centers with spokes spreading out to the various communities. The main hubs could connect to a central trunk line. For example, Dunwoody and Marietta would be hubs with lines spreading out from them going to nearby communities. Maybe those lines would be light rail (if that's cheaper) tying into the heavy rail system that goes downtown. So, let's say I live in Alpharetta, but work in Dunwoody, I'd have an option besides the 400. Does this make sense?
This actually sounds like the original Concept 3. It would have slightly expanded heavy rail, introduced light rail, and put arterial busways all over the place.
If we gotta get more transit in the 'burbs, sooner rather than later, bus may be an underrated solution.
In terms of our city image, yeah, it seems like we don't have too terribly bad traffic. I've always thought of us as having one of the single worst traffic situations in America, but this makes it look like we're all that bad. However, in terms of actual infrastructure improvement, I think it's more important to look at the actual and not relative numbers. A 25.8-minute average commute just means we suck less. That should not be acceptable to us. So it's important, whether via project packages like the now-failed TSPLOST or via urban planning, that we get a hold of this.
There are some signs of hope, however: Almost exactly two-thirds of us drive to work alone. But that means a third of us carpool, take MARTA, or use some other form of alternate transportation to get to work.
For many people I know who live ITP, the single biggest benefit for them is being so much closer to just about everything. I do think a paradigm shift is underway in Atlanta toward this mindset, where not as many people--and I'm talking families, not just singles--are as afraid to live in town. And it's not just a matter of decreasing driving distances, but for some trips, eliminating them entirely. This whole idea of better walkability, mixed-use, etc. is not just some frivolous hippie idea. It's a real-world, entirely practical, and increasingly necessary solution. Ironically, increased density can have far less of a negative impact on traffic per square mile, because while it does increase the number of cars from any given destination, it compensates for this with generally shorter trips. And then transit becomes far more economically feasible, because economies of scale can escalate far more quickly when lots of people want to get on board.
Atlanta is not terribly family friendly. We find ourselves going OTP for shopping frequently and for restaurants sometimes as well. And, of course, the schools ITP are mostly bad. The amenities in Atlanta are also more spread out than in many other metro areas. They aren't all in close. Atlanta ITP is mostly large lots in a forested setting. It is not very walkable. You've got the large lots and hills, limited sidewalks and limited through streets. I was out running a while back and a fallen tree closed the street. If they hadn't allowed me to go around it, instead of another 1/4 mile, I would have had to run another 2-3 miles to get home.
Making Atlanta more walkable is a big task. Mixed use projects tend to have expensive rents, limiting the people you can draw. SF subdivisions generally don't want commercial close, so nothing is close. Limited streets means you have to walk on very busy streets. Decatur is pretty walkable, but during the boom years, their real estate performed worse than just about any other nice area. The many creeks could be used to have trails, but for the most part, Atlanta prefers to keep them in a natural state. Atlantans seem to mostly prefer the big rural feeling lot in the forest.
What these town center ideas fail to realize is that people change jobs more often than they change houses. Moving can be expensive. So people end up traveling long distances.
IMO Atlanta should focus on business nodes, but not in every town in the metro area. That just can't be served by mass transit. They should focus on the existing areas along the MARTA routes + eventually connecting Emory and Cumberland Mall and the Northpoint area in North Fulton to MARTA, not to some streetcar. Fulton, Cobb and Dekalb County need to focus on growing their existing employment districts, not trying to create a bunch of small new ones.
Most of all they need a generally accepted long term plan that's based on reality, not on illusions that people will have the same job for life, that people will suddenly abandon their cars just because there is a shiny new streetcar traveling 15 mph, and that downtown Atlanta will suddenly have all the jobs, instead of the current trend toward being a college and government center with even the hometown paper heading out to Dunwoody.
The TSPLOST was a perfect example of a lack of reality based thinking. They had no idea how they were going to fund all these new transit projects in 10 years when the funding ran out.
my commute....I take the CCT express bus from Acworth to Downtown everyday. I get to sleep so it's nice. My wife works in Buckhead, in after rush hour, heads home after rush hour.
This actually sounds like the original Concept 3. It would have slightly expanded heavy rail, introduced light rail, and put arterial busways all over the place.
If we gotta get more transit in the 'burbs, sooner rather than later, bus may be an underrated solution.
I think buses could work just fine if they're express buses.
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netsirk
Maybe it's perception. Maybe it's the lack of a viable transit system. Maybe both?
I say this respectfully. I live in NJ, 30 miles outside of Manhattan, and have commuted into NYC for most of my career--so, let's go with 15 years. My 30-mile commute, if I drove, would take I don't even know how long. Forever, unless I wanted to leave for work at 5:30 a.m., and even then, all bets are off. The Lincoln Tunnel would make my head want to explode.
So, I take the train. Good old NJ Transit. At 30 miles outside of the city, it takes about an hour to get in to Penn Station on a rush hour train. It's not horrible. But it does **** me off, often, that a 30-mile commute takes an hour. (After that, there's walking and subway. But that's my issue, not mass transit's.)
After reading this thread, I have to laugh, because here I sit in NJ, and Atlanta is known as "terrible traffic." Meanwhile, if I were to drive into the city during rush hour, it would be worse, I'm guessing. That said, I have the option of reliable mass transit that reaches far into New Jersey. That's why I say--maybe it's a little of both, when it comes to Atlanta.
The monthly pass on NJ Transit from Morristown, NJ to NY Penn is $361, by the way. Paying it every month makes you want to choke someone. Just saying.
LOL...I feel your pain. But ATL traffic is very spotty in areas. It is however, not the worst as some make it seem like by far. The thing about ATL is that once you figure out the bottlenecks, and times that the bottlenecks occur, you can avoid them or brace for them. The traffic is bad in the same areas everyday. And like a previous poster added, It will be bad downtown for events. But that made me learn the surface streets that much faster. And I am living that same NYC nightmare now dude....I live in Manhattan and commute to Greenwich for work. You would think that its contra-flow of traffic but there is still mad traffic. And the Metro North is almost 400 a month for me too! Plus the unlimited Metro card for the subway and bus. Its cheaper for me to fill up and drive everyday, which is what I do. I cant wait to move back to ATL....
LOL...I feel your pain. But ATL traffic is very spotty in areas. It is however, not the worst as some make it seem like by far. The thing about ATL is that once you figure out the bottlenecks, and times that the bottlenecks occur, you can avoid them or brace for them. The traffic is bad in the same areas everyday. And like a previous poster added, It will be bad downtown for events. But that made me learn the surface streets that much faster. And I am living that same NYC nightmare now dude....I live in Manhattan and commute to Greenwich for work. You would think that its contra-flow of traffic but there is still mad traffic. And the Metro North is almost 400 a month for me too! Plus the unlimited Metro card for the subway and bus. Its cheaper for me to fill up and drive everyday, which is what I do. I cant wait to move back to ATL....
Shhhh.....you'll bust some people's bubble. Atlanta has the worst traffic in the US and commuter rail solves all problems, right? You hit the nail on the head with your comments, especially about the two fare zone and costs. One thing you left off is that you can leave and return at your own convenience in your car, while the MNCRR ties you to their schedule.
Shhhh.....you'll bust some people's bubble. Atlanta has the worst traffic in the US and commuter rail solves all problems, right? You hit the nail on the head with your comments, especially about the two fare zone and costs. One thing you left off is that you can leave and return at your own convenience in your car, while the MNCRR ties you to their schedule.
Yeah, Neil, that's reeeallllyy what we've been saying.
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