Atlanta Streetcar (Downtown Loop) progress (Sandy Springs, Roswell: calculator, air pollution, train station)

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

You answer the question. I'm not the one asking taxpayers for billions of dollars just so I can enjoy a "smooth ride." If heavy rail has not led to high density development in Atlanta, then how do you figure a streetcar will? I mean, I know this is a shibboleth smashing reality you want to ignore at all costs, but I'd appreciate a sincere response.

So you think development in Midtown, Buckhead, and Perimeter Center have nothing to do with all those areas being served by multiple MARTA stations?

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Don't play me to the left, just answer the question.
And there are walkable neighborhoods around MARTA stations. I walk to my neighborhood station, during the weekends. Some Americans are just too lazy to walk 1 mile!

So true. Amazing how hot it is when you ask someone to walk around town, while it's perfectly fine to sit outside during a football game or beer fest.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

That's still not high. It's low for a CBD. That's actually lower than Fort Greene, a mere residential neighborhood in Brooklyn. Downtown DC, defined as a 2.1 sq. mile area, sees its daily population rise to 500,000 people. That's a density nearly four times higher than DT Atlanta's despite the two metro areas being of relative equal size. And it's a density that's certainly high enough to warrant massive expenditures on transit.

200,000 is a lot of people, even if 500,000 is more. Very few places grew that much during the day from a working population unlike you characterize is more common. Atlanta has the second highest daytime population growth percentage-wise (after DC) and four largest growth in raw numbers after DC, NYC, and Houston. Again, saying that there are places with more people doesn't mean that we don't have a need.

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

You think that's the gap that needs to be filled? You can't be serious. Atlanta already has a good deal of transit that most people don't even use. There's no reason that someone living in Austell couldn't park at the Hamilton E. Holmes station and ride in. I mean, the parking at the MARTA station is free (which already tells us the demand for transit is weak because daily parking at DC Metro stations cost $4.75). If people aren't breaking their necks to ride a subway, which has superior mobility to a streetcar without question, then there's no reasonable basis to believe that streetcars will enhance ridership in any meaningful way.

Wait just a second, there are ~400,000 MARTA each day. Sure, it's not in the millions (and that can't happen if we don't push for higher capacity transit lines like LRT, Streetcars, heavy rail extensions, and commuter rail instead of just buses) but it's the 7th most in the country. We're far ahead of other cities with much higher populations densities such as Baltimore or Miami or even LA (percentage wise). The problem isn't getting people to take MARTA period, plenty of people do that. We just need more people to do it.

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

Okay, that's fine, but why sink money into transit with such low projected ridership? It makes no sense. Over three decades after MARTA was built, the city's highest density tract has only 21,182 ppsm, and you seriously expect people to believe that a silly streetcar is going to generate all of this high density development? Get real. I'm sure Siemens is happy that their lobbying efforts have paid off and that they can sell streetcars to municipalities looking to "make a statement," but the municipalities really need to think long and hard about how low ridership and high operating costs could burden the rest of the transit system. It's apparently of no concern to streetcar advocates that their pet project could be become a huge financial albatross that causes real suffering in the form of reduced service in other parts of the city that need transit the most.

You and the naysayers are the only ones making this argument that the streetcar alone will drive development. It will not. It is however a major component of it and a huge selling feature. And in this day and age with bank financing being the way it is, you need that sort of thing. What do you think a developer can sell better to green light a high density project: "It has great bus access!" or "It has great rail access!"

And for goodness sakes, stop acting like there hasn't been any development along existing transit areas in Atlanta. Midtown, Buckhead, Lindbergh, Decatur and most of the East Side, and even Dunwoody have seen the majority of their pre-recession growth centered around existing MARTA transit.

Over all, I am struggling to figure out what you goal is in all of this other than to play the devils advocate. Are you suggesting that Atlanta does nothing and simply except the status quo and perhaps even mediocrity? That it isn't a worthy goal to attempt to move the city in a certain direction? Besides, what's it matter to you? You have no skin in this game as a resident or tax payer.

[atlantagreg30127]

This is the final warning.

There's too much personal bickering going on in this thread.

Comment on the TOPIC. JUST the topic. Not about each other, not about past posts from other posters, and stop tossing out insults and jabs. Otherwise it gets closed - period.

[Zanarkand A East]

Release the hounds!!

[Zanarkand A East]

We definitely need a thread about the streetcar: there's plenty going on, and this is a great place for updates from people that take the tour and attend the events (there's one tonight at Mangos Caribbean near Auburn and Piedmont). Please keep this one open!

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

Five Points is still the hot ratchet mess it was 10 years ago.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

I predict the Payless store and the sneaker shop will both be gone by the time the MMPT is built.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I predict the Payless store and the sneaker shop will both be gone by the time the MMPT is built.

Here's hoping. It would make waiting for buses on that corner less of a hassle.

[#1MARTAFan]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Small? 250,000 people commute to Downtown and Midtown each day for work alone not counting everyone else that has daily business in one of those two districts. I hope I don't have to quantify for you how many people that is (it's not small potatoes). Also, you do realize that we have already invested billions in a mass transit system with a big focus on getting people to these two districts. Overall, I find your comment to be odd.

250,000 people represents just under 5% of the metro region. That is a small figure.


Well, lets examine this more with regard to commuter rail and the MMPT as has been discussed in this thread as bleed-over from other threads.

Lets look at the Griffin commuter rail line. Here are some assumptions I'll build off (based on figures taken from a 2011 study):

*Commuter rail to Griffin construction cost of $450 million. (I'll round this number down to $400 million to ensure my cost estimates are on the low side)
*20 Year operations costs of $400 million
*Approximately 3,600 daily trips (one way trips, not round trips) generated by a mature line once build-out is complete with rail stops in Morrow, Jonesboro, Lovejoy and Griffin.

So, $400 million/20 years = average annual expense of $20 million.

3,600 x 365 = 1.3 million daily trips

$20 million/1.3 million = $15.93 operating and maintenance cost per trip.

Add in $400 million in construction costs paid over 30 years via a 5%
bond, and you get $25 million per year in cost to construct the line.

$25 million/1.3 million trips= $19.03 construction cost per trip.

Add it the operating costs and the construction costs together and together and the total cost
per trip is about $34.30.

How much could you reasonably charge for a trip?
I don't think you could go over $10 per trip and still get the 3,600 trip per day number.

For every trip the the taxpayers are paying $24.60 in extra costs.

So, for a commuter who uses this 20 days a month, 2-ways (to and from work), the taxpayers are paying $972 a month in subsidies. This comes to over $11,000 a year.

Does it makes sense to pay $11,000 a year to get one car off the road?

These are the sort of real world, fact-based figures that we are looking at with regards to commuter rail.

[MattCW]

Ok, now go and breakdown the costs to move vehicles over the road so we can have a true comparison.