Atlanta Streetcar (Downtown Loop) progress (Dunwoody, Griffin: estimates, commute to, walkable)

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by #1MARTAFan

The abundance of affordable parking is a good thing.

The presence of this option prevents the need to invest billions in developing a mass transit system to accommodate the region's relatively small population (as a percentage) that commute downtown or midtown).

Small? 250,000 people commute to Downtown and Midtown each day for work alone not counting everyone else that has daily business in one of those two districts. I hope I don't have to quantify for you how many people that is (it's not small potatoes). Also, you do realize that we have already invested billions in a mass transit system with a big focus on getting people to these two districts. Overall, I find your comment to be odd.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Small? 250,000 people commute to Downtown and Midtown each day for work alone not counting everyone else that has daily business in one of those two districts. I hope I don't have to quantify for you how many people that is (it's not small potatoes). Also, you do realize that we have already invested billions in a mass transit system with a big focus on getting people to these two districts. Overall, I find your comment to be odd.

It's not a lot. Comparably sized metro areas (DC or Boston) could easily double or possibly triple that number if you accounted for all of the workers in a 4 sq. mile area.

And even if people are commuting into those districts, it doesn't mean they're using transit. According to the C-D database, 69% of the residents of the 30309 zipcode (which includes Midtown) drive to work in a car alone. That figure is 57% for the 30303 zipcode (which includes Downtown) and 63% in 30308. If driving rates are that high in the densest areas of the city (where transit access is at its highest), then what gives us reason to believe that people from outside of the core are going to commute into the city via transit?

And since the city has "already invested billions in a mass transit system," then maybe it should focus on developing around those stations instead of groveling before the feet of taxpayers to build more unnecessary transit. You need to clear your plate before you start asking for seconds, thirds and then dessert.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

You have to remember that this particular project at this stage is not seen as the end all be all way to make Downtown whole again. It's going to be a multi-decade project that will probably not see the fruits born from it until we all are old and grey. On the other hand, using how rapidly Midtown redeveloped as a primer, 15 years from now we could be looking at a success story like no other.

I agree with much of your analysis, but would add that it will take factors other than rail transit to bring downtown back. As you say, Midtown redeveloped very quickly but it didn't take streetcars to accomplish that. The same is true of all our other development success stories.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

That's not speculation, it is fact that there are at least 200,000 people in Downtown Atlanta most days of the year from office workers, residents, and students. Being that Downtown is only 4 square miles, that's a daytime population density of 50,000. (Area divided by population. This is how population density works.)

That's still not high. It's low for a CBD. That's actually lower than Fort Greene, a mere residential neighborhood in Brooklyn. Downtown DC, defined as a 2.1 sq. mile area, sees its daily population rise to 500,000 people. That's a density nearly four times higher than DT Atlanta's despite the two metro areas being of relative equal size. And it's a density that's certainly high enough to warrant massive expenditures on transit.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Because of this, despite what the residential population density of Downtown Atlanta is, the district needs to be able to efficiently move 200,000 people minimum in, out, and around it each day. We're already ahead of the game in several ways however. Downtown has great (albeit congested most of the day) highway access and the most MARTA subway in addition to 11 crisscrossing bus lines. The real gap that needs to be filled is to provide higher capacity street level transit to the district. Rapid buses could fulfill the need, but I would argue that streetcars are more efficient due to their ability to hold higher capacities. Not to mention it has already been decided that Downtown will be the hub of a reborn streetcar network in the central city, so it's kind of a non-issue at this point to argue for rapid buses. (FYI, MARTA already has several rapid bus lines and one true BRT line in the suburbs. I think that is a good place for them to be.)

You think that's the gap that needs to be filled? You can't be serious. Atlanta already has a good deal of transit that most people don't even use. There's no reason that someone living in Austell couldn't park at the Hamilton E. Holmes station and ride in. I mean, the parking at the MARTA station is free (which already tells us the demand for transit is weak because daily parking at DC Metro stations cost $4.75). If people aren't breaking their necks to ride a subway, which has superior mobility to a streetcar without question, then there's no reasonable basis to believe that streetcars will enhance ridership in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by waronxmas

You have to remember that this particular project at this stage is not seen as the end all be all way to make Downtown whole again. It's going to be a multi-decade project that will probably not see the fruits born from it until we all are old and grey. On the other hand, using how rapidly Midtown redeveloped as a primer, 15 years from now we could be looking at a success story like no other.

Okay, that's fine, but why sink money into transit with such low projected ridership? It makes no sense. Over three decades after MARTA was built, the city's highest density tract has only 21,182 ppsm, and you seriously expect people to believe that a silly streetcar is going to generate all of this high density development? Get real. I'm sure Siemens is happy that their lobbying efforts have paid off and that they can sell streetcars to municipalities looking to "make a statement," but the municipalities really need to think long and hard about how low ridership and high operating costs could burden the rest of the transit system. It's apparently of no concern to streetcar advocates that their pet project could be become a huge financial albatross that causes real suffering in the form of reduced service in other parts of the city that need transit the most.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I agree with much of your analysis, but would add that it will take factors other than rail transit to bring downtown back. As you say, Midtown redeveloped very quickly but it didn't take streetcars to accomplish that. The same is true of all our other development success stories.

Your point will far on deaf ears. Streetcar fanboys think any good thing that happens is somehow connected to the streetcar.

New condos going up? That's because the developers were expecting a streetcar.

Development one mile away from the nearest streetcar line? That's because people are willing to walk a mile to ride a streetcar.

Development in areas of the city not served by rail? That's because streetcars used to run there back in the 50s.

Defeat of fascism in WWII? I'm not sure how that can be tied to streetcars, but I'm sure someone can make the argument for it.

Priority Number 1 in their book is to build a streetcar or light rail. It's like making up your mind to use a wrench to build a house no matter what. And they're more focused on using the wrench than they are on the final product--the house.

[cqholt]

Defeat of fascism in WWII? I'm not sure how that can be tied to streetcars, but I'm sure someone can make the argument for it.

Of course streetcars defeated Hilter in WW2. Something had to carry all those women to work in factories, building tanks, planes, and munitions.

[cqholt]

So Bajan, apparently streetcars once served a very important role in connecting Queens and Brooklyn. Something buses struggle to do.

The demise of the trolleys in the late 1930s and '40s seems to be largely responsible for disconnecting the two sister boroughs. Yes, they were replaced by buses, but buses have never — for a number of reasons — been able to cement the connection the way trolleys seemed to.

A Very Brief History of Why It's So Hard to Get From Brooklyn to Queens - Richard Greenwald - The Atlantic Cities
Care to explain how buses cannot replicate the connectivity of streetcars in NYC?

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by cqholt

So Bajan, apparently streetcars once served a very important role in connecting Queens and Brooklyn. Something buses struggle to do.

So cqholt, apparently heavy rail has not resulted in high densities and walkable neighborhoods around MARTA stations. Care to explain why streetcars are going to stimulate such development when heavy rail has struggled to do it?

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

So cqholt, apparently heavy rail has not resulted in high densities and walkable neighborhoods around MARTA stations. Care to explain why streetcars are going to stimulate such development when heavy rail has struggled to do it?

Removed - confrontational
And there are walkable neighborhoods around MARTA stations. I walk to my neighborhood station, during the weekends. Some Americans are just too lazy to walk 1 mile!

[BajanYankee]

Let's evaluate heavy rail's track record.

A BofA and suburban-style apartments. Exciting.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

Wow.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

Booming.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

Five Points is still the hot ratchet mess it was 10 years ago.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

Parking lots next to a skyscraper and MARTA station in Midtown.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

Low-density development and SFHs with 0.1 miles of heavy rail.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

Right.

Atlanta, GA - Google Maps

So it's not looking particularly good around existing MARTA stations. And the streetcar is supposed to do what exactly? Why hasn't heavy rail yet delivered what the streetcar is supposed to deliver?