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My main issue is it might deter the few people who reeeeally financially need it the most to get through school.
When it is the other way around it is theres to lose.
With this proposal some people wouldn't be able to pay up front to begin with.
It is already a predominately upper and upper middle class gov't perk as it is, so I don't want to structure it in a way that would greatly discourage those from the most financial need from attempting to use it.
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Originally Posted by dichloromethane
The HOPE scholarship has attribute to growth of all Georgia colleges. HOPE is slated to cover 50% of students' tuition by 2015. In the recent years, HOPE has changed it's requirements substantially to ensure only deserving students receive HOPE.
UGA's Student Government Association has proposed an interesting idea with the help of other SGA groups in Georgia. Instead of having students party hard and flunk freshman year, effectively wasting a more deserving student's HOPE money, why not have them pay out-of-pocket for freshman year and reimburse them at the END of the year if they still maintain the proper GPA?
I think this is a very interesting idea.
Roughly 83% of GSU's freshman return for another year.
Roughly 95% of Georgia Tech's freshman return for another year(2010 data)
Roughly 93% of UGA freshman return for another year
Now, this data isn't indicative of HOPE eligible student retention rate, or why students are leaving(financial reason, personal reasons, GPA, transfer, social etc) but I think we can safely say that 99%+ of Georgia Tech and UGA freshman have above the minimum HOPE GPA which is a mere 3.2.
GSU may have students who don't receive HOPE freshman year, but many do. Now, I think it's very fair to ask these students to keep at least a 3.0 GPA at the end of their freshman year of college. If they are serious about pursuing a career, then they will care enough to meet this minimum. If they don't, then they will have to pay for it. Remember, you're able to get HOPE back once after losing it, but only once.
To be frank, I think this a good move in the right direction more for the student responsibility aspect as opposed to the saving HOPE aspect.
Now, I know at 18 or 19, students may not make the smartest choices in high school or in college, but that shouldn't be an excuse for everything. At 18 you can vote, you can drive and you are a legal adult. You should be able to make good decisions, especially if you're a HOPE eligible college student.
I agree with one of the comments in the article. Students should definitely receive HOPE for freshman year up-front. Poor students cannot afford the outrageous cost of tuition, and they'll leave a lot of talent out in the cold. However, if they lose it for freshman year then they ought to pay back the money HOPE gave them. This will also tackle the social responsibility as well as save HOPE for students who deserve it. Note, that freshman year is usually filled with electives or general credit courses. You don't take your upper level linear algebra, organic chemistry or intro to thermodynamics courses classes your first year - even with AP classes. It isn't too much to ask to do well in English, math, history and music appreciation or whatever elective you choose. Many schools even have the freshman year course to help students ease into college.
3.0 in Industrial Engineering at Georgia Tech is not the same as a 3.0 in Humanities at Georgia State. Seems to reward the kids who choose to do easy, liberal arts program and punish kids that are working towards a more difficult degree.
This.
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Originally Posted by moneill
If you make HOPE geared to income of parents you create another entitlement program, and that we don't need.
The families that would get hit the hardest are upper middle class AGAIN. They would probably make too much but they want to be able to send their kids to college like the least fortunate.
And this.
I'm glad to see someone else with logic around here.
If you make HOPE geared to income of parents you create another entitlement program, and that we don't need.
The families that would get hit the hardest are upper middle class AGAIN. They would probably make too much but they want to be able to send their kids to college like the least fortunate.
How are they hit the hardest now? The least fortunate are the least likely to make it to college as it is and every dollar they have to borrow makes it harder for them to make a middle class living after college. HOPE already is an entitlement program...you don't have to play the lotto to get free tuition. It's just an entitlement for the upper middle class as it is.
Show me an actual upper middle class kid qualified for GT/UGA that didn't go b/c their parent's couldn't scrounge up an extra 8-10k/yr. I'm not saying stop having a minimum level of merit (3.2 or 3.5...whatever) but that we should stop subsidizing further when the parents can swing a 10k/yr w/o breaking a sweat. There are plenty of families closer to the median household where 8-10k/yr is the difference between the kid going to college and working at McDonald's.
Of course we should reward academic merit but even though everyone likes to think the halls of Harvard are filled w/ underprivileged minorities when over 30% are children of alums. There's not as many Will Hunting's as we'd all like to think.
My parents were of the mindset if it's not an Ivy league w/ scholarship money it'll be GT even though they could well afford the schools my brother's and I got into (Emory, Vandy, CMU, UNC). There are thousands of kids w/ similar decisions each year and 8k extra from the state (on top of already heavily discounted in-state tuition) isn't going to offset the 45k+ most out of state schools cost. That said, if they are a really top student, they're going to get merit scholarships that will draw them out of state...in that case, GT/UGA's cost is irrelevant and 8k won't draw them back.
3.0 in Industrial Engineering at Georgia Tech is not the same as a 3.0 in Humanities at Georgia State. Seems to reward the kids who choose to do easy, liberal arts program and punish kids that are working towards a more difficult degree.
I wouldn't exactly say IE is the roughest major GT has to offer. Ask any Chem E. Not everyone can hack it as any type of engineer so while we should push as many people who are willing/capable, having a ton wash out as dropouts seems just as counter productive as graduating tens of thousands of communications majors.
Of course we should incentivize harder majors but that's why my employer is offering 70K+ 10k signing for new hires out of GT undergrad. It's also why GT tuition is only 8k/yr. No six figure earning family is going to deny their kid that education b/c it costs an extra 8k/yr...the same might not be said for families earning 50k.
I kid you not, there were plenty of students at my highschool who were Magna/Summa Kum(spelled with a c and it gets starred out lol) Laudes who had 1200-1400 Math/Writing/Reading SAT scores. They took maybe 1 AP class during their whole high school career.
I took 6 AP classes during my highschool career and ended up screwing up in two and getting 2 C's which dropped my GPA down to around a 3.75. Had I taken all normal classes, I could have easily obtained a 3.9+, but I wanted challenge and rigor and it looks good to colleges when you take AP classes. I also wanted to be prepared for college which I'm doing fine in now.
The system DOES reward students who take easier courses. AP classes do not cost money, but the AP exam which is optional and isn't calculated into the final grade. I think anyone who thinks they are smart enough should take them.
By using SAT/ACT, it rewards students who not only worked hard in highschool by doing their coursework, but they are ready to take college level coursework and ensures that HOPE doesn't waste money on student who aren't ready.
A <1050 SAT student won't be prepared for college like a 1250 SAT student would be(I'm only accounting Reading/Math btw).
It has shown through studies that SAT is one of the keys to showing which students are prepared and have the highest chance of success in college.
A 3.0 is NOT hard to earn in highschool. It's very easy and requires minimal effort in my honest opinion. In fact, you can do even do poorly in some of your classes in a year and still obtain HOPE. Just take easy classes that don't require critical thinking and college level coursework.
As some posters said above, students are NOT entitled to this money...HOPE is a special thing...I don't see this same thing in other states and they seem to do fine. You should have to earn it by working VERY hard in highschool. It's free money.
Oh and I'm liberal by the way incase you start thinking I'm a conservative or something.
If you make HOPE geared to income of parents you create another entitlement program, and that we don't need.
The families that would get hit the hardest are upper middle class AGAIN. They would probably make too much but they want to be able to send their kids to college like the least fortunate.
Sure, but then again, when did upper middle class parents play the lottery?
moneill and gtcorndog have slightly irrational positions on the topic. Last time I checked the membership at Country Club of the South hadn't dropped very much. I actually agree with both sides: merit and need.
Question: How to save the HOPE scholarship?
1.
Implement an income cap, not a massively wide income cap that would hurt every our upper middle class students, which mind you that UMC make up our brightest students at UGA and Georgia Tech, just for those who make 250k collectively some sort of income cap should be implemented. The upper middle class have the smarts and the ability to push themselves even harder to get Zell Miller and other scholarships. They will continue to improve UGA and Georgia Tech. It's the poor that need the extra help.
We want to be known for GT and UGA...not Honey Boo Boo and Ludacris(who ironically went to Georgia State). Our state must become more educated
2.
Raise the standards for HOPE to a 3.3 and a minimum SAT/ACT score.
A 3.2 is a joke at our Georgia high schools, plus AP scores and grade inflation only hurt. gtcorndog and moneill are 100% right, HOPE is not an entitlement. You don't get free money to waste it all. You must earn your scholarship. Look. If you're middle class or poor and getting HOPE dollars to attend some ho-hum school to major in Art History, you're doing yourself a disservice as you are your state and community. You get a hell of a lot of debt with no related job, the state loses HOPE dollars that could've gone to educating our next greatest doctor or engineer and your community misses out on a potential full time employee to bolster the local economy.
moneill and gtcorndog have slightly irrational positions on the topic. Last time I checked the membership at Country Club of the South hadn't dropped very much. I actually agree with both sides: merit and need.
Question: How to save the HOPE scholarship?
1.
Implement an income cap, not a massively wide income cap that would hurt every our upper middle class students, which mind you that UMC make up our brightest students at UGA and Georgia Tech, just for those who make 250k collectively some sort of income cap should be implemented. The upper middle class have the smarts and the ability to push themselves even harder to get Zell Miller and other scholarships. They will continue to improve UGA and Georgia Tech. It's the poor that need the extra help.
We want to be known for GT and UGA...not Honey Boo Boo and Ludacris(who ironically went to Georgia State). Our state must become more educated
How much do you think this will save? Are 250k+ earners bankrupting the system? Would this even do anything significant to save the system? Since you believe taxpayers with high incomes should not be eligible for the same college tuition benefits of low income families why not just make high income earners pay out of state tuition or other punitive measures to make them contribute more? They CAN afford it right? That is your argument, right? Why not take all statewide benefits away from the rich since they can provide for themselves?
There are programs for the poor to succeed. If they don't utilize them, that is their fault.
Quote:
2.
Raise the standards for HOPE to a 3.3 and a minimum SAT/ACT score.
A 3.2 is a joke at our Georgia high schools, plus AP scores and grade inflation only hurt. gtcorndog and moneill are 100% right, HOPE is not an entitlement. You don't get free money to waste it all. You must earn your scholarship. Look. If you're middle class or poor and getting HOPE dollars to attend some ho-hum school to major in Art History, you're doing yourself a disservice as you are your state and community. You get a hell of a lot of debt with no related job, the state loses HOPE dollars that could've gone to educating our next greatest doctor or engineer and your community misses out on a potential full time employee to bolster the local economy.
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I think this is a great idea, but will never happen because you'll get Jesse Jackson and the rest of the "Waaaaaaaah that is racist" crowd coming out to show how racist standardized tests are.
I'm still in for linking the scholarship percentage to critical need majors. This might be computer scientists and other technical fields today, but it will migrate over time. Using this as an incentive to help steer college kids toward degrees that offer a ROI is a good thing. I'm not saying take away the scholarship completely for liberal arts majors, but the state is dumb to invest the same amount of money on a Dance major at UGA that they do on a Nuclear Engineer at GT or a Biotechnology major at UGA.
So HOPE is definitely going bankrupt w/ its current funding levels as the state cheats on its funding of colleges. There's also definitely grade inflation on the part of HS's in the state regardless if you're in E. Cobb or Hancock County.
Yes, many students at GT/UGA are the future tax basis of our state and critical for our growth/success. Many of them also come from families that will send them to GT/UGA regardless if the cost changes by 8-10k/yr b/c the alternatives are unacceptably more expensive (check out Emory). There aren't necessarily a ton of people in that 250k+ income range w/ kids choosing UGA/GT but each one of those on HOPE is potentially one less kid being given a shot when their family is only earning the median 45k.
I'm a strong believer in standardized testing although I recognize it's not a perfect predictor of school performance. I'm able to land in the 98/99th percentile on SAT/ACT/GMAT but my college GPA didn't exactly match that performance so I happen to know many people who are the inverse. If we implement an SAT minimum, we definitely should cap the income levels. I'm all for improving our return on investment and investing ~40k on a kid whose parents will fund college even if it costs 150k seems to be a lot of wasted money. My argument is we'll lose fewer kids at the absolute top of income than we'll gain by offering to kids (who aren't outright poor) but are at the limits of college affordability. Yes, the truly poor/highly talented kids have mechanisms for getting to school but when HOPE is no longer able to grow, we shouldn't simply raise the bar to protect kids who will wind up in college regardless of HOPE.
Why is it ok to subsidize families who can afford to pay for pre-k, but not those who can afford to pay for college? In this day and age, college is at least as important, if not more so.
At least with HOPE for college, there is a standard that must be met, grade-wise.
Daycare is less expensive than college. Also, like I mentioned, many upper income and even middle income people will pay to get their kids in a private Pre-K program now even with one that is free available. I think providing free Pre-K for all is good for the economy since it gives families more disposable income on a monthly basis. There aren't any future dependent care accounts available like there is for college and Pre-K is only for one year and is much less expensive than college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill
3.0 in Industrial Engineering at Georgia Tech is not the same as a 3.0 in Humanities at Georgia State. Seems to reward the kids who choose to do easy, liberal arts program and punish kids that are working towards a more difficult degree.
I'm sure most engineering majors at GT would not get great grades if they were in liberal arts programs, especially ones with heavy writing involved. What is easy to one is not easy to another so it depends on your personal opinion whether or not something is easy or difficult.
Also, just as we need engineers, we need social workers, business innovators, teachers of all humanities, and many other people who take liberal arts as a major. And FWIW, most lawyers chose English as a BA degree pre-law due to the high amount of reading and writing involved that will prepare them for law school. A lot of of med schools also like to see students studying ungrad liberal arts degrees in order to prove their other interest in life. So just because someone studies liberal arts for a BA doesn't mean that they will eventually work in a dead end field. I am in procurement and compliance and was an English BA and my degree comes in handy since I write a lot of proposals, biographies, reports, etc. Procurement is also a specialized field, as is technical writing, which I have also worked in before. HR involves a lot of skills involved in liberal arts as well and is a field that is growing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill
If you make HOPE geared to income of parents you create another entitlement program, and that we don't need.
The families that would get hit the hardest are upper middle class AGAIN. They would probably make too much but they want to be able to send their kids to college like the least fortunate.
The poorer families will get the hardest hit. Many middle or upper income families, myself included, WILL send our kids to college. We have accounts like 529s in order to pay for our kid's education. We scope out schools for our kids. We make sure our kids have excellent grades and test prep in order to make them more competitive for scholarships. Poor families do not have extra money for this sort of thing. If they lack family members who have been to college, they are ignorant about what exactly they need to do to get into college, how much college cost, how to get the best bang for your buck, how to get test prep, etc.
And how is it okay to have an entitlement program for middle income people and not poorer people anyway? That is a weird viewpoint - entitlements are okay for middle income and upper income people, just not poorer people. Very weird.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
I kid you not, there were plenty of students at my highschool who were Magna/Summa Kum(spelled with a c and it gets starred out lol) Laudes who had 1200-1400 Math/Writing/Reading SAT scores. They took maybe 1 AP class during their whole high school career.
I took 6 AP classes during my highschool career and ended up screwing up in two and getting 2 C's which dropped my GPA down to around a 3.75. Had I taken all normal classes, I could have easily obtained a 3.9+, but I wanted challenge and rigor and it looks good to colleges when you take AP classes. I also wanted to be prepared for college which I'm doing fine in now.
The system DOES reward students who take easier courses. AP classes do not cost money, but the AP exam which is optional and isn't calculated into the final grade. I think anyone who thinks they are smart enough should take them.
By using SAT/ACT, it rewards students who not only worked hard in highschool by doing their coursework, but they are ready to take college level coursework and ensures that HOPE doesn't waste money on student who aren't ready.
A <1050 SAT student won't be prepared for college like a 1250 SAT student would be(I'm only accounting Reading/Math btw).
It has shown through studies that SAT is one of the keys to showing which students are prepared and have the highest chance of success in college.
A 3.0 is NOT hard to earn in highschool. It's very easy and requires minimal effort in my honest opinion. In fact, you can do even do poorly in some of your classes in a year and still obtain HOPE. Just take easy classes that don't require critical thinking and college level coursework.
As some posters said above, students are NOT entitled to this money...HOPE is a special thing...I don't see this same thing in other states and they seem to do fine. You should have to earn it by working VERY hard in highschool. It's free money.
Oh and I'm liberal by the way incase you start thinking I'm a conservative or something.
So you want people to feel sorry for you for taking AP courses and not getting a higher GPA because of it?
Like I stated before, if you cannot get the grade you want out of AP, then you should not take them. I agree that a 3.0 is not that hard for most people. I will be honest and admit I think a 3.75, anything really under a 4.00 is pretty easy to get, especially in high school.
I took 6 AP courses in high school and got As in all but 1 course. I know that my experience in academia is not the same as others though. A lot of people are not good at certain subjects, math or writing in particular. Some kids have reading disorders that hinder them from being able to get high scores in language arts, writing, and literature classes.
If you cannot cut it in AP, then you should take regular classes. Simple as that. If students are serious about their GPA, then they need to plan their classloads around getting the bets GPA possible. If they want to do that without a lot of effort, they need to take a regular courseload. Don't get upset because other students are smart enough to take regular courses and not want to brag about being in AP as if they are better than kids who take regular courses and do better. You are not. You should have taken regular courses.
I feel for you though in seeing other people as being less than for not taking AP. But AP is not mandatory.
And it is hilarious to me the whole elitist attitude in general that is espoused on this forum in regards to students getting a couple hundred points higher on the SAT being better than another student in college or "more prepared." The SAT does not prepare students for college lol! It is just "one measure" of what sorts of knowledge that a student has acquired throughout their K-12 career. It is not the end all for college admissions.
And FWIW, just like you said high school was easy, I personally feel college was rather easy as well. School in general is easy. I went to 3 different colleges (2 I took classes in as a part of the TAG program in high school and they were very highly regarded colleges in my home state) all of them were easy. College, IMO is actually easier than high school. You take less courses and you have more time to study as a result. Also, college is more concentrated on your major. Most people pick majors that match their interest, as such, they will enjoy their college classes more than they would high school. The idea that college is this exceptionally hard scholastic environment is always interesting to me.
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