Atlanta streetcar testing to start friday night (Tiger: linear, bars)

[MattCW]

250,000 what for $1 Billion? What kind of effect is the interchange project really going to have? All it's going to do is save about five seconds, that's it. The real bottlenecks aren't the interchange itself, if they were, traffic would be free-flowing either side of it and it isn't. So all that $1 Billion is doing is making no noticeable change to 250,000 people, while the streetcar's $100 Million is going to start changing the dynamics of downtown for the better. I'd say the streetcar has the far better RoI.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MattCW

250,000 what for $1 Billion? What kind of effect is the interchange project really going to have? All it's going to do is save about five seconds, that's it. The real bottlenecks aren't the interchange itself, if they were, traffic would be free-flowing either side of it and it isn't. So all that $1 Billion is doing is making no noticeable change to 250,000 people, while the streetcar's $100 Million is going to start changing the dynamics of downtown for the better. I'd say the streetcar has the far better RoI.

The streetcar moves at 7 mph. That improves nothing for anyone.

If you want to admit that the Streetcar is NOT a transportation solution at all and just an expensive gimmick to try to steer growth to an area that has been neglected because is less ideal than other locations, then we can start to have a real discussion.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

The streetcar moves at 7 mph. That improves nothing for anyone.

If you want to admit that the Streetcar is NOT a transportation solution at all and just an expensive gimmick to try to steer growth to an area that has been neglected because is less ideal than other locations, then we can start to have a real discussion.

It moves at 35mph, it averages 7mph, same or actually more by the numbers than your vaunted buses. Going to say we should dismantle the HRT just because it averages only 35mph?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by MattCW

It moves at 35mph, it averages 7mph, same or actually more by the numbers than your vaunted buses. Going to say we should dismantle the HRT just because it averages only 35mph?

Well obviously it doesn't move 35 mph very often if it averages just 7 mph.

[brownhornet]

lol, with all the surveys that have shown time after time that people simply choose not to ride buses i'm not sure why that even keeps being brought up.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by brownhornet

lol, with all the surveys that have shown time after time that people simply choose not to ride buses i'm not sure why that even keeps being brought up.

So the solution is to invest in something that cost 10 times the amount in order to try to coerce people to ride transit? That seems pretty stupid. People choose the mode of transportation that is most convenient for them. If buses provide that, they'll ride. Maybe they won't ride the urine smelling, MARTA buses, but give them something nice and you don't need $100 million for a few streetcars and a 1.3 mile line.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

Well obviously it doesn't move 35 mph very often if it averages just 7 mph.

Your buses don't either then.

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

Compare the cost per user and the reason money is invested in roads makes sense. Get your head out of the sand and look at the facts. The same old "but but but roads do too" argument is pathetic. If you invest $1 billion in the I-283/400 interchange, you impact 500,000 drivers a day. Compare that to investing $100 million in a streetcar that is projected to get 2,500 riders. There is a reason big money is invested in road infrastructure. It impacts the most people and impacts the ability of Atlanta to remain a transportation hub for distribution (Billions of dollars of local jobs). This isn't a hard concept. If you want to argue more valid points of economic development and urban revitalization, you at least have a leg to stand on, but the "waaaaaaah roads waaaaaah" argument is a complete loser talking point.

GT, You have dodged the question before. Since highways are such a great deal, you have no problem with users directly paying for 100% of transportation infrastructure costs (both highways and transit), right?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by jsvh

GT, You have dodged the question before. Since highways are such a great deal, you have no problem with users directly paying for 100% of transportation infrastructure costs (both highways and transit), right?

I haven't dodged anything. You pose this like this is some 'gotcha' question, which is foolish. Raise the gas tax to cover all maintenance costs for roadways. I would be fine with other tax dollars continuing to go toward roadway infrastructure improvements because keeping roads open for the free flow of commerce is important for our economy, especially in the Atlanta area where distribution is such an important part of the local economy. I think these 'other' tax contributions should be smaller than the gas tax contributions. I've said this over and over. This isn't new, son.

Now this is probably the part where you link some whacko study that tries to contribute the asthma of some kid with crappy genes and every other marginally related (yet unproven) cost as a cost of roads which drives up the cost of road infrastructure to levels that are absolutely unrealistic. Don't try to sell me that load of garbage, cuz I'm not buying.

[sedimenjerry]

Originally Posted by MattCW

250,000 what for $1 Billion? What kind of effect is the interchange project really going to have? All it's going to do is save about five seconds, that's it. The real bottlenecks aren't the interchange itself, if they were, traffic would be free-flowing either side of it and it isn't. So all that $1 Billion is doing is making no noticeable change to 250,000 people, while the streetcar's $100 Million is going to start changing the dynamics of downtown for the better. I'd say the streetcar has the far better RoI.

LOL at 5 seconds.

In the morning when I go from 285W with the bottleneck approaching the ramp to 400N, traffic is a lot smoother after the interchange. The afternoon? On 400S I know that as soon as I make it past 285 it's fine til after Buckhead. Every afternoon the ramp from 400S to 285W backs up. 4 lanes turns into 2 quickly and with a backed up lane for 285W it causes serious problems. The ramp to 285E backs up sometimes. Usually when a truck has to slow down to 25 around that sharp loop. Dangerous part of that is people are going 60 then suddenly traffic has come to a stop. Except on the worst days 285E is fine after 400 until you get all the traffic from PTree Dunwoody and Ashford Dunwoody. The short stub of a ramp that empties out into the left lane of 400N from 285E backs up every day. You end up with a line of cars in the exit only lane. The project will help with these issues. The ramp from 285W to 400N backs up 285 and makes it hell for people getting on from Ashford Dunwoody which helps back up the local streets. The design will help with that by better separating the ramp from 285. Same with 400S. New flyover will help the 285E to 400N connection. If anything it'll be much much safer. Yea traffic will still back up but intensity will be reduced as will the edges of rush hour traffic. Just reducing the amount of time delays are present will help. It's an archaic design that needs to be redone. Just like upgrading Spaghetti Junction from a cloverleaf in the 80s to the present design. Yea it still backs up (it's one of the worst in the city) but can you imagine leaving it as a cloverleaf? And this isn't even mentioning the 24/7 use the interchange gets with freight and people. If we were talking about a streetcar connecting downtown to midtown and the tourist destinations I wouldn't have as many reservations but we aren't.