One Year After GA400 Tolls - 15% Traffic Spike, Toll Savings Squandered in Fuel Consumption (Atlanta: rental car, rental)

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by afdinatl

I will never pay a toll in Ga.

Nor do you have to. You can choose alternate transportation methods or lifestyle changes to avoid traveling. Or you can spend twice as much on gas sitting in traffic twice as long. But if you are not willing to pay for expressways you will not be going anywhere quickly on the road.

[afdinatl]

Originally Posted by WanderingImport

A HOT lane is just a pay per use lane while a toll road is a pay per use road. Not much difference if you ask me. Unless I'm mdifferenceng something..

Also, I'm not a huge fan of toll roads either, but I hope you're wrong about Atlanta NEVER having another toll road. There is just too much traffic not to have one. It'll only get worse as the population increases.

Finally, I'll say this.. The 400 toll was an incredible bargain compared to other toll roads. I personally think it is dumb to spend more in gas money driving around it just to avoid paying 50 cents. And again, I'm no fan of tolls.

You are forced to pay on a toll rd. An example would be the Lincoln tunnel in NYC. A hot lane is what is on 85. You arent forced to pay if you dont want. Big difference imo

[WanderingImport]

Originally Posted by afdinatl

You are forced to pay on a toll rd. An example would be the Lincoln tunnel in NYC. A hot lane is what is on 85. You arent forced to pay if you dont want. Big difference imo

That is pretty much what I said. Without use of the word "force" ... You're attempting to make it sound worse than it really is.

[go-getta-J]

Tolling is always an effective tool to reduce vehicle congestion, but drivers (in most cities) would rather sit in parking lots and complain about horrible traffic than have to actually put their money where their mouth is.

The harsh truth is that "free roads" suffer from a typical case of tragedy of the commons.....overused by the masses, a significant portion of it needlessly and frivolously.

Start tolling all the highways ITP going to ATL during rush-hour, and you will see more ride-sharing and less useless joyriders clogging up the highways. 285 can be the free "alternative" so that only those who need to get to work on time have a reasonable commute directly to the city.

[MattCW]

For the billionth time on here, there is NO SUCH THING AS A FREE ROAD! The users pay for them! I fail to see how tolling roads and creating freeloaders out of most of the users is going to do anything but depress the economy. Use the same tax money used for roads on alternatives with higher RoI such as heavy rail and commuter rail. Once the Red Line is extended to Windward Parkway, 80% of the people now on GA-400 won't be able to complain from the get-go.

[go-getta-J]

Originally Posted by MattCW

For the billionth time on here, there is NO SUCH THING AS A FREE ROAD! The users pay for them! I fail to see how tolling roads and creating freeloaders out of most of the users is going to do anything but depress the economy. Use the same tax money used for roads on alternatives with higher RoI such as heavy rail and commuter rail. Once the Red Line is extended to Windward Parkway, 80% of the people now on GA-400 won't be able to complain from the get-go.

Um yes they are "free roads" in the sense that everyone can access and use them as a public good. Because of this, they get overused and frivolously used because, besides high gas prices, there's no other active disincentive to use them.

Congestion tolling into the city can reduce snarling traffic by discouraging everyone and their mother from driving to work separately, this would encourage more ride-sharing. The toll revenues could be then used to expand MARTA to encourage public transit as well.

Simply throwing up more rail won't encourage public transit ridership if we don't make solo driving in gas guzzlers to work every day an expensive proposition.

This whole fairy-tale pipe dream of "No Tolls, No New Taxes, Build Public Transportation out of existing funding" reflects a strong entitlement mentality by those who want the benefits of living in a big metropolitan area but neither want to shoulder the costs of city life nor give up their beloved "elbow room"

[MathmanMathman]

Originally Posted by afdinatl

False.

GA does not have any toll roads. People who say otherwise do not know the difference between a hot lane and a toll roads. Atlanta will never have a toll road.


I will never pay a toll in Ga.

That was my last indignity leaving Atlanta, had to pay 50 cents in order to leave. Would like to somehow get my 50 cents back.

[WanderingImport]

Originally Posted by go-getta-J

Um yes they are "free roads" in the sense that everyone can access and use them as a public good. Because of this, they get overused and frivolously used because, besides high gas prices, there's no other active disincentive to use them.

Congestion tolling into the city can reduce snarling traffic by discouraging everyone and their mother from driving to work separately, this would encourage more ride-sharing. The toll revenues could be then used to expand MARTA to encourage public transit as well.

Simply throwing up more rail won't encourage public transit ridership if we don't make solo driving in gas guzzlers to work every day an expensive proposition.

This whole fairy-tale pipe dream of "No Tolls, No New Taxes, Build Public Transportation out of existing funding" reflects a strong entitlement mentality by those who want the benefits of living in a big metropolitan area but neither want to shoulder the costs of city life nor give up their beloved "elbow room"

Pretty much everything you said is true... except that infrastructure (aka roads) are not at all free. They may seem like they're free because there are no tolls on them, but they are semi-paid for by taxes we pay. Is it enough? Absolutely not and there is a dire need for more sources of revenue, but would I go so far as to say they're free? Nope, because they're not.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by go-getta-J

Um yes they are "free roads" in the sense that everyone can access and use them as a public good. Because of this, they get overused and frivolously used because, besides high gas prices, there's no other active disincentive to use them.

Then in that case the police, fire services, courts and schools are free.

Congestion tolling into the city can reduce snarling traffic by discouraging everyone and their mother from driving to work separately, this would encourage more ride-sharing. The toll revenues could be then used to expand MARTA to encourage public transit as well.

So you'd be moving the problem into the suburbs. You slap tolls on the roads into Atlanta, and the companies will move to Perimeter, Cumberland even Gwinnett and cause even more of an issue since you don't have centralized corridors to focus improvements on.

Simply throwing up more rail won't encourage public transit ridership if we don't make solo driving in gas guzzlers to work every day an expensive proposition.

It's already an expensive proposition, and more than just filling one's tank. Financially, there's a cost in maintenance and insurance. Some harder to justify costs are the ones in time and stress. I speak from experience in all these areas.

This whole fairy-tale pipe dream of "No Tolls, No New Taxes, Build Public Transportation out of existing funding" reflects a strong entitlement mentality by those who want the benefits of living in a big metropolitan area but neither want to shoulder the costs of city life nor give up their beloved "elbow room"

For the record, I'm not one of the promoters of "no new taxes" only "no unnecessary taxes." You'll find that broad stance largely outside Atlanta though unfortunately still in the Atlanta suburbs. I'm assuming you're making a broad statement rather than responding to me directly however. I'd be happy to shoulder more of the costs for a drastically increased quality of living.

[jsvh]

Oh Matt