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Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Instead of doing 65 we do about 30 as people crawl by the construction sites on 575, even though there aren't any lane closures. Maybe Cherokee drivers are just "stupider".
And they've done lane narrowing on 75 at several points, which can also cause people to hit their brakes and slow down.
I don't think Cherokee drivers are more stupid.... there's just a heck of a lot more of them now! LOL When I come down to the city from the mountains, it's quicker anymore for me to come over the mountain and down 400 because taking 515 through Canton down is bumper to bumper.
Yes but these aren't lanes for the typical commuter. They are toll lanes -- AKA "Lexus lanes" -- for those willing and able to spend money.
This is a good point.
But we must keep in mind that the tolls that will be in place on the I-75/I-575 express lanes are not necessarily intended only to give higher-income motorists a less-congested peak-hour ride as much as they are intended to provide the often severely-congested and fast-growing I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor with 2 congestion-free lanes during peak traffic hours.
Though keeping lesser-paid motorists out of the lanes will undoubtedly be a side-effect of the variable tolls, the variable tolls on the I-75/I-575 express lanes are not aimed at keeping lower-income, limited-income and modest-income motorists out of the lanes as much as they will be aimed at keeping the express lanes from filling up with traffic congestion during peak hours like the general purpose lanes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
At least the busses will benefit from them, and those fortunate enough to find two others that can car pool.
That is a good point that buses (as well as registered vanpools) will be able to use the new express lanes on Interstates 75 and 575 without paying tolls.
But.....The I-75/I-575 express lanes will be different from the I-85 HOT lanes in that all carpools will have to pay tolls when using the lanes, no matter the occupancy.
Unlike the I-85 HOT lanes where registered vehicles with 3 or more occupants do not have to pay tolls while using the lanes, all vehicles other than buses and registered vanpools will be charged tolls while using the I-75/I-575 express lanes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Id much rather see all this money and disruption go in to something more universally useful, like commuter rail.
The current version of the I-75/I-575 express lanes project is actually financially structured to allow for the future implementation of high-capacity transit service along the parallel US 41 and CSX/W&A Railroad right-of-ways.
The past version of the project was funded with a P3 (Public-Private Partnership) that would have financially penalized the State of Georgia if any type of improvements or upgrades (including transit) would have been made to the parallel state-maintained right-of-way of US 41 Cobb Parkway and the state-owned CSX-leased Western & Atlantic Railroad ROW.
The P3 funding apparatus that former governor Sonny Perdue put in place for the project and that current governor Nathan Deal cancelled would have severely discouraged the implementation of high-capacity transit along through the I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor with a severe financial penalty to the State of Georgia if any type of upgrade would have been made to parallel state-owned right-of-ways like US 41 and the CSX/W&A ROW.
It should also be noted that the I-75/I-575 express lanes are not intended to be the only traffic congestion alleviation measure put in place through the Northwest Corridor.
There is also much interest (particularly amongst Cobb County business and real estate interests and some in regional and state governance) in implementing high-capacity transit service along the parallel US 41 Cobb Parkway and CSX/W&A Railroad right-of-ways in the future.
It is just that implementing high-capacity transit service along the US 41 and CSX/W&A corridors is a MUCH heavier lift, financially, politically and logistically.
The I-75/I-575 tolled express lanes were a project that was easiest to implement because the state already owned most of the right-of-way, could quickly get funding for the project (no politically contentious referendum like is needed for transit along the US 41 ROW) and there are no potential logistical conflicts (like there would be in attempting to implement commuter rail service along the existing freight rail tracks of the CSX/W&A ROW).
Variable toll lanes might not be preferable for most, but the lanes are better than nothing for a fast-growing I-75/I-575 anchored Northwest Corridor.
Another point that should not be overlooked is that the I-75/I-575 express lanes are being put in as an attempt to help keep the I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor attractive for business investors.
The state and regional powers-that-be do not want heavily-developed and heavily-populated corridors like I-75/I-575 Northwest and I-85/I-985/GA 316 Northeast to become less attractive to business investors because of the worsening traffic congestion in those linear transportation corridors where so much of the state's population lives (in heavily-populated Cobb and Gwinnett counties, respectively).
...So the state is installing variable toll lanes through those corridors as a way to help business investors be able to more quickly travel along those often severely-congested roadways so that they will want to continue to bring investment and employment (money and jobs) to those areas which have become so crucial to the state's logistical and political structures.
Instead of doing 65 we do about 30 as people crawl by the construction sites on 575, even though there aren't any lane closures. Maybe Cherokee drivers are just "stupider".
And they've done lane narrowing on 75 at several points, which can also cause people to hit their brakes and slow down.
Can't speak for 575. Being only two lanes doesn't help. I've driven 75 a few times the past 3-4 weeks (and will again Tuesday), it's not that bad. You see lane shifts like that on 285 quite a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Yes but these aren't lanes for the typical commuter. They are toll lanes -- AKA "Lexus lanes" -- for those willing and able to spend money. At least the busses will benefit from them, and those fortunate enough to find two others that can car pool.
Id much rather see all this money and disruption go in to something more universally useful, like commuter rail.
That's literally who it's for, the typical commuter. Hardy toll road in Houston gets plenty of commuters avoiding 45 just a couple miles away. If I could point at all the higher end cars I see on the road and have just half of them disappear onto their own road, I'd be happy. Besides, I've seen plenty of beat up cars in the 85 lanes. I can't tell any difference in wealth for the most part.
The current version of the I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor is actually a downgrade from earlier proposed versions of the project that called for as many as 8 new lanes (4 HOT lanes and 4 tolled truck lanes) and about a dozen or so Bus Rapid Transit stations to be added to the I-75 roadway.
After much pushback from the public over the large-scale expansion of the I-75 roadway to as many as 25 lanes in some places (an expansion that would have taken out hundreds of homes and businesses), much pushback from the powerful trucking lobby over plans to force truckers to use the TOT (Truck-Only Toll) lanes and much pushback from Cobb County and Marietta city governments over the severe erosion of their tax bases that the large-scale expansion would have caused, the State of Georgia downsized the I-75/I-575 NW Corridor project from 8 new lanes to only 3 new reversible lanes.
There was also pushback from Cobb County business interests that prefer that any future high-capacity transit line operate along the redevelopment opportunity-rich US 41 Cobb Parkway and CSX/W&A Railroad right-of-ways and not the redevelopment opportunity-poor I-75 right-of-way.
Lack of funding and concerns about right-of-way acquisition caused the state to further downsize the project to only 2 new reversible lanes along the west side of the existing I-75 roadway where there is more commercial development and less residential development to be disturbed.
How does the P3 funding for the NW Toll lanes effect any transportation upgrade to US 41? I know in some of the contracts, local governments are prevented to do any transportation upgrades to parallel corridors, in fear of it steering away potential revenue.
How does the P3 funding for the NW Toll lanes effect any transportation upgrade to US 41? I know in some of the contracts, local governments are prevented to do any transportation upgrades to parallel corridors, in fear of it steering away potential revenue.
That is a good point that buses (as well as registered vanpools) will be able to use the new express lanes on Interstates 75 and 575 without paying tolls.
But.....The I-75/I-575 express lanes will be different from the I-85 HOT lanes in that all carpools will have to pay tolls when using the lanes, no matter the occupancy.
Unlike the I-85 HOT lanes where registered vehicles with 3 or more occupants do not have to pay tolls while using the lanes, all vehicles other than buses and registered vanpools will be charged tolls while using the I-75/I-575 express lanes.
...So the state is installing variable toll lanes through those corridors as a way to help business investors be able to more quickly travel along those often severely-congested roadways so that they will want to continue to bring investment and employment (money and jobs) to those areas which have become so crucial to the state's logistical and political structures.
Good info. More lanes are good BUT the main issue with HOT lanes besides the obvious toll is they give the state an easy out for investing in highway improvements ex budget meaning they don't have to impose fiscal discipline on the rest of the budget to fund the project. Also once tolls go in they rarely come out. HOT lanes often don't work because stubborn commuters are opposed on principle to paying for what they have been getting for free and the private companies operating them regulate tolls to meet their business plan which can result in very high per mile charges - In VA the HOT lanes can be as much as $1/mile.
The toll will easily help pay off costs and maintenance. Not to mention you just removed some traffic from the "free" lanes.
The tolls will not come close to even maintaining the system or recouping the costs to build it.
Even the I-85 HOT lanes, which were built using EXISTING lanes, does not pay for itself. The cost of building and maintaining the tolling system is much higher than what the tolls recoup.
This I-75 project which is totally NEW construction will definitely not pay for itself any time soon and will likely always be in the hole.
Good info. More lanes are good BUT the main issue with HOT lanes besides the obvious toll is they give the state an easy out for investing in highway improvements ex budget meaning they don't have to impose fiscal discipline on the rest of the budget to fund the project. Also once tolls go in they rarely come out. HOT lanes often don't work because stubborn commuters are opposed on principle to paying for what they have been getting for free and the private companies operating them regulate tolls to meet their business plan which can result in very high per mile charges - In VA the HOT lanes can be as much as $1/mile.
It is hard to address all the inaccuracies presented in such a short opinion.
The state budget has had very focused discipline, because it has been cut so much. We have just gone through nearly 3 decades of limited investment due to cut backs. We have lowered education spending as well.
The lack of transportation spending has little to do with any increase of any other budgetary problems. It has been a direct link to the removal of funds to the GDOT from the cutback in various taxes... in no small part the cutback of gas taxes the state has issues in the past.
It is improper to say tolls go in and never come out. There are actually 2 big flaws with this argument. 1) Georgia has not has many tolls in the past. Every project that was meant to pay for the whole project was paid off the toll removed. Period. You're saying the opposite, so you are completely incorrect. It was a false assumption. 2) The toll is not intended to pay off the whole project. As I have mentioned system-wide in the region they will pay for about half. They also don't intend -this- toll to go away. No one ever stated it would as they have with different types of tolling projects. The toll is a mechanism for keeping the lane moving with peak efficiency. It is not intended to pay the project off, but to increase efficiency of operation. So the mistrust of government responsibility in tolling is severely misguided in this case, whether you like the project or not for other reasons.
HOT lanes do work. If you look at the I-85 N corridor it did take some time for the public to learn them, get a Peach Pass, and understand them. However usage increased over time. It is incorrect to issue a blanket statement that people are too stubborn to use them. That hasn't been the case in practice. If that were the case the pricing mechanism would stay low if people were stubborn and people would find it cheaper to use.
Private companies WILL NOT be regulating these tolls. They are helping finance 40% of the projects cost and will be repaid and are taking a risk, but the State will maintain control of the roadways, ability to upgrade nearby roadways, and will be the regulator of how the toll works. The toll will be a market demand toll that is regulated for maximum efficiency, not maximum funds. This allows the private contributors to create models for how much funds to expect.
If they get expensive, it will be from market demand... not a private company.
The tolls will not come close to even maintaining the system or recouping the costs to build it.
Even the I-85 HOT lanes, which were built using EXISTING lanes, does not pay for itself. The cost of building and maintaining the tolling system is much higher than what the tolls recoup.
This I-75 project which is totally NEW construction will definitely not pay for itself any time soon and will likely always be in the hole.
Well sort of....
They were never intended to pay off the system. This isn't like the past GA400 toll or some of the past island causeways that were paid with tolls.
System wide they are expected to pay for half the entire system. So far the I-85N lanes have beat expectations.
The tolls are designed to keep peak efficiency on the lanes. The more traffic backs up, the less traffic can pass by when speeds are too low. The tolls are designed to make sure peak capacity keeps moving by, no matter how bad General purpose lanes get at peak times. This is why the I-85N project was considered a congestion relief project. The best way to fix a backup is to make that cars aren't stuck and something keeps moving.
Beyond that I don't see what is wrong with a toll funding half the project. That technically means state government can do twice as much with their funds.
Agree 100%. I was just merely explaining to the other poster that these lanes do not pay for themselves.
I have no problem with this at all.
I am not opposed to toll lanes as an idea as long as they actually add new lanes and don't replace an existing lane, like on I-85.
Both of the I-75 projects and the I-85 HOT extension to Hamilton Mill are getting right what the original I-85 lanes got wrong.
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