$370 million mini-city Halcyon pitched in Forsyth County (Atlanta, Alpharetta: tenants, quality of life)

[sedimenjerry]

You haven't told me anything I don't already know. You still haven't told me why private developers can't use their money the way they want to. You should be complaining to ARC and local governments to block this.

This isn't going in some random location with small roads, it's right off 400. The exit is 3 miles up from Windward Pkway and all the jobs in that area. Some of the office parks are just over a mile away on Ronald Reagan. Quit focusing on the fact that it's in Forsyth. That does not matter except for MARTA expansion. Forsyth doesn't have any large employment centers (although traffic on 20 between Cumming and Buford has something to say about that) but this development is just miles away from Alpharetta.

All those other sunbelt cities you mentioned differ in geography. DFW is somewhat hilly but not quite as much and the climate doesn't support dense forest like here. A lot easier to just clear cut large tracts. Plop streetview down on I 35 north of Ft Worth and 820. You'll see it's fairly flat there and basically is intermittent shrubs in places. Houston is on the gulf coastal plain and is very flat. Only the northern part is heavily forested (The Woodlands, Atascocita, Kingwood) but it's at least flat. The grid eventually breaks down due to wetlands. Look at Austin. The eastern and central parts are much more grid based. You get the hills in the west and it breaks down. Atlanta's geography is not conducive for a grid.


So again, why can't private developers use their money how they see fit? They didn't say "we're gonna give metro Atlanta a project" and then draw a location out of a hat. They wanted to target the northern part of 400. If they wanted to go elsewhere, they would have. If they wanted to make a bunch of small strip malls with loads of curb cuts requiring car trips between every single store, they could have done that instead. If you have 350 million, go ahead and make a development in some place else.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

Because developers were not caring that how this happen..... Atlanta has the second largest urban sq mi in the country after NY... ATL urban areas is nearly 1,000 sq mi.. more than Dallas and Houston.

If Phoenix and DFW are like Atlanta and there's nothing stopping sprawl so why did ATL urbanized area sprawl much farther? Because developer bent rules more in ATL. If the transportation infrastructure is bad there's no need build development. But this did not stop developers in Metro Atlanta which made the region even more less boundless. Chicago is 3.5 million more people but ATL urbanize area is larger.

I have been criticized by some for pointing out that many people like having a little space to move around in.

Here in the ATL there are plenty of places to live if you want to be packed in like sardines. For those who like that lifestyle there are lots of options.

But why should we force everyone else to do the same?

In my opinion traffic is a sign of economic health. It shows that you've got a busy population that is on the move. Traffic is also a self-limiting issue -- if it becomes too burdensome, people will make adjustments in where they live, work, shop and how they get around.

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by cqholt

We would not be doing backflips for a 400, cul-de-sac, housing development that is being built in Forsyth County.

Why not, cq? Why not?

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by sedimenjerry

You haven't told me anything I don't already know. You still haven't told me why private developers can't use their money the way they want to. You should be complaining to ARC and local governments to block this.

Literally did.......... just cause a private developers is spending their money doesn't make it a good developed. Sprawl in general private developers. Your post are pretty much pro pro pro pro sprawl.



You pretty much ignored my post............ My point was there no difference from this as if was another giant big box stores. it's sprawl either or.

Also I never said private developers can't spend their money that doesn't mean their interest is the environment, transportation, and sprawl. My point was it's sad.. that 300 million project isn't going to something good for the region.

This isn't going in some random location with small roads, it's right off 400. The exit is 3 miles up from Windward Pkway and all the jobs in that area. Some of the office parks are just over a mile away on Ronald Reagan. Quit focusing on the fact that it's in Forsyth. That does not matter except for MARTA expansion. Forsyth doesn't have any large employment centers (although traffic on 20 between Cumming and Buford has something to say about that) but this development is just miles away from Alpharetta.

All those other sunbelt cities you mentioned differ in geography. DFW is somewhat hilly but not quite as much and the climate doesn't support dense forest like here. A lot easier to just clear cut large tracts. Plop streetview down on I 35 north of Ft Worth and 820. You'll see it's fairly flat there and basically is intermittent shrubs in places. Houston is on the gulf coastal plain and is very flat. Only the northern part is heavily forested (The Woodlands, Atascocita, Kingwood) but it's at least flat. The grid eventually breaks down due to wetlands. Look at Austin. The eastern and central parts are much more grid based. You get the hills in the west and it breaks down. Atlanta's geography is not conducive for a grid.


So again, why can't private developers use their money how they see fit? They didn't say "we're gonna give metro Atlanta a project" and then draw a location out of a hat. They wanted to target the northern part of 400. If they wanted to go elsewhere, they would have. If they wanted to make a bunch of small strip malls with loads of curb cuts requiring car trips between every single store, they could have done that instead. If you have 350 million, go ahead and make a development in some place else.

San Francisco city is grid, So is a lot of greater LA But your point is also a run around, if an area wasn't fit for a grid means it sudden't be sprawl across. Developers got over board with this in metro Atlanta, because developers were already breaking normal development pattern. Open up for developer to keep going.

Greater Houston doesn't have much develop beyond The Woodlands. Montgomery County is 1,077 sq mi and only have 518,947, compare to Gwinnett County 437 sq mi with 859,304. That means developers slowed down once they hit distance and terrain more difficult for development. In metro Atlanta developers kept going. My point wasn't this on a small areal road, my point was because developers have been putting stuff on a small areal roads, open the mentally theirs no bounds were develop can be.... Which cause the metro to sprawl more.

This development is on 400 but it's already extremely far out, that's the part you getting quote from you... "Quit focusing on the fact that it's in Forsyth."

You think I'm just looking at counties names, your not getting that Alpharetta is already far out, So even at the border with Forsyth county is very far out. And Atlanta peers aren't expanding that far out Atlanta is nearly a whooping 1/3 larger then it's peers. Alpharetta being a employment is already a bad mistake in sprawl, but it's the past the task now is to work with it and fix the issues. Your going it's only a few miles north. Over looks that Alpharetta is already far enough.

Again Atlanta sprawl further then it's peers.

If Phoenix and DFW are like Atlanta and there's nothing stopping sprawl so why did ATL urbanized area sprawl much farther? Because developer bent rules more in ATL. If the transportation infrastructure is bad there's no need build development. But this did not stop developers in Metro Atlanta which made the region even more less boundless. Chicago is 3.5 million more people but ATL urbanize area is larger.



NY............... 18,351,295,... 3,450 sq mi
LA................ 12,150,996.... 1,736 sq mi
Chicago.......... 8,608,208... 2,443 sq mi
Mia................ 5,502,379... 1,239 sq mi
Phily............. 5,441,567.... 1,981 sq mi
DFW............... 5,121,892... 1,779 sq mi
Houston.......... 4,944,332... 1,660 sq mi
DC..................4,586,770... 1,322 sq mi
Atlanta........... 4,515,419... 2,645 sq mi
Boston............ 4,181,019... 1,874 sq mi
Detroit............ 3,734,090... 1,337 sq mi
Phoenix.......... 3,629,114 .. 1,147 sq mi
SF................ 3,281,212..... 524 sq mi
Seattle........... 3,059,393.... 1,010 sq mi

ATL urbanized area is million people less than DFW
but ATL urbanized area sq mi is nearly 1/3 larger than DFW


Forsyth County is far, North Fulton is already far enough! remember North Fulton used to be another county, Milton County!


Atlanta 5 core counties is 3.5 million... in 1,800 sq mi, which is comparable size to DFW, Houston, LA, Boston, Phily urban areas. Other wise Forsyth, Cherokee, Bartow Counties are beyond realm other urbanize areas expansion. DFW urbanized area doesn't go out a Forsyth county.

Forsyth County is not a major employment area, and doesn't need to be... Also this cause more sprawl because then developers would start to develop beyond that new employment area.

ARC ideas are to fix the issues the region has your ideas it's ok to makes more issues and try to fixes those too. Your Idea about expanding MARTA to Forsyth County............. See how your idea creates another problem.

Their's even less urgency for transportation then there is Gwinnett and Cobb, they just political issues,....... Forsyth County how ever has political issues, population demographic issues nor does Forsyth County has the Bussiness leaders and major employment area that want it.

But were going to have to agree to disagree cause you seem to be ok with sprawl, and private developers creating more.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by arjay57

I have been criticized by some for pointing out that many people like having a little space to move around in.

Here in the ATL there are plenty of places to live if you want to be packed in like sardines. For those who like that lifestyle there are lots of options.

But why should we force everyone else to do the same?

In my opinion traffic is a sign of economic health. It shows that you've got a busy population that is on the move. Traffic is also a self-limiting issue -- if it becomes too burdensome, people will make adjustments in where they live, work, shop and how they get around.

It not sign of economic heath In fact coordinate with obesity and lower Quality of life, because people aren't walking around cul-de-sac. anyways. Sprawl is bad for the Environment, health, transportation, utility cost. Counties and cities spend more money on street signs, lights, pipes, wires, roads. more yards take water and etc. Sprawl also dies, street malls and etc but yet sprawl expand more then, those strip mall declines and etc.






A little is a understand statement. The issue isn't having a little space. people in Houston, Dallas and etc have a little space .... Atlanta is less populated then them but ATL urbanized area is 1/3 larger then theirs. You can't defend it by saying some people want to live with that option. Atlanta pretty has over stock of sprawl.


In past leader didn't think about the future at all in terms of region font print, now the region expand outward to ridiculous levels, with a lot of developments in bad locations.

Region didn't just grow outward simply because people wanted space, but rather

1, because of race,
2. because developers could get away with building developments at bad locations on Ariel roads.
3. balkanization counties and etc not working together. Other regions have larger counties
4. Most metros populations are in cities and suburban cities not directly under counties. Developers pretty much exploited this in metro Atlanta to build across counties.



Again the region is projected to grow 2-3 million............ Do you think it's a good idea, that the population expand mainly in exurbs?

Forsyth, Cherokee, Henry County counties go from 200k now to double or triple their population into size of Cobb?

Also...... Sprawl mainly occurred during the Baby boom, we are about enter a massive elderly population increase. Before the baby boom people mainly live in walkable neighborhoods.....baby boomers created un walkable environments for them live in when they got older.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

It not sign of economic heath In fact coordinate with obesity and lower Quality of life, because people aren't walking around cul-de-sac. anyways.

No disrespect intended but I'm not buying that old line.

People in the burbs tend to be at least as healthy and fit as their intown counterparts. They also enjoy a very high quality of life.

See: Atlanta obesity map

[AnsleyPark]

Most of you are myopic in your views of suburbs. It's ridiculous. Grow up.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

Most of you are myopic in your views of suburbs. It's ridiculous. Grow up.

I think it is just a vocal handful, Ansley.

[ATLTJL]

Aren't you glad internet forums weren't around when you were young and spewing nonsense?

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Aren't you glad internet forums weren't around when you were young and spewing nonsense?

Heck yeah! I was a republican when I was young!