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To name a few: Broad St (from four lanes to now entierly closed to traffic), Ponce in Decatur, Ponce in front of PCM, Edgewood, Auburn, Juniper, Piedmont, W Peachtree, MLK, DeKalb Ave, and many more in the works.
And you know what? Things got better. The world didn't end.
Broad Street? You mean the section that's literally a 720' long, two lane road with another road a couple hundred feet to either side of it? Terrible example.
Ponce through Decatur? It's two lanes for the most part. How much of a diet can it take?
Do you have links to all these road projects you keep talking about? I'd like to look them over and see what's going on.
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Or even your beloved Freedom Parkway has already been scaled back. It used to have a bridge / exit ramps at boulevard that were thankfully removed:
So that instead of free-flowing traffic with the big road below grade and the standard road above, you have a busy intersection that people must traverse? Sounds like something everyone can enjoy.
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What exactly is your budget that you couldn't afford a transit connected location?
I assure you I just bought a place for significantly less per sq ft than your home a block away from Five Points. You can buy condos for less than $100k around there. Or if you prefer a SFH there are houses that cheap near West End. Or how about those $300k brand new town homes a couple block away from King Memorial MARTA and the street car.
My house now is $150 per square foot. It was less than that when we bought it.
Requirements are: 1750 square feet absolute minimum for the perfect setup (more like 2250-2750), 3 bedroom absolute minimum (would require another room for an office), two car garage absolute minimum, storage for my work equipment, and in a good school district with special education programs. Go.
When I punch up a $325k max, with three bedrooms on Redfin, I find very little in an area I would consider moving my family to inside the city, that offers anything more than what I already have or what I can get in an area more desirable to me. A condo downtown is most certainly not going to work. Anything south of 20 is pretty much not going to happen. And West End? That's a non-starter. And these $300k townhouses a block off MARTA in ? Link please, because they don't show up on any search. If it was just me, I could easily find a place to live. I have a wife and son to think about, and I'm going to give them the best I can, not some small-ass hundred year old house in some neighborhood that's considered "charming" because all the houses are one wind-storm away from falling down.
I mean, I could buy this in Edgewood for $219k, more than the house I live in now and walk to MARTA!
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You also need to get over your personal predjudice of "crappy neighborhoods". There are plenty great neighborhoods in the places you name. You should try spending some time there.
Here's the thing. You don't know my, or anyone elses', definition of "great". What you think is "great" might be my personal hell. Some people think 1940s bungalows with 1 bathroom are "great". Some people think a 600 square foot condo is "great". Some people think that a place rotting from the inside out is "great" as long as they can walk to a bus stop. That is not my definition of "great". You know what my definition of "great" is? New, 3000 square feet with 4 bedrooms, a large garage, a decent yard, and a community pool, playground, and other amenities.
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That is correct. If you are a mile away but the only reasonable way you can get anywhere is by car then you are disconnected. Just as being a mile off shore from Manhatten would make you disconnected from NY as you could only get there by boat.
Okay, then I get where you're coming from. Once we redesign the entire city from top to bottom, then it will work to your preferences. Got it.
If being just a few miles outside of the core in a metro area this big is considered too far by you, then I think logical discussion has taken flight.
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Great. You will have my support too. Just know that I expect it to have dedicated RoW which will come from vehicle travel lanes and density nodes will be priorized.
That's fine. You seem to be missing a big point of mine, due to your clouded vision. I have never once said that we need every road, more roads, or anything of the sort. So far, I have argued against your claim that we could remove highways and be fine and that highways and parking lots are what's killing everything. I have never said that no road could be impacted in order to bring forth transit.
In my vision, the streetcar should have run on Baker and Highland, Marietta Street, and Edgewood/Euclid. From the Aquarium, World of Coke, and Centennial, GWCC/Philips/Dome, to Little Five and Virginia Highland. It would have intersected the Beltline twice, and been just a short walk through a park to MARTA. I'd like to see one run up and down North Ave. from Moreland to Tech Pkwy. I'd like to see one on Marietta Street and Howell Mill from at least West Midtown to Edgewood (or Baker if my other line was built). The problem is the ROW. Those are all busy corridors, mostly two-lane with few other options, with little room for a Streetcar with dedicated ROW. So, you'd lose the road entirely, which isn't going to pass.
Or even for existing transit like the streetcar. It should be getting dedicated lanes for all of it's current route and future extentions.
I'd love to see a train through the middle of most of the interstates, like it is on 400. Right down the middle, with stops at major areas. And the further outside of town you get, the more commuter parking available.
I'd love to see a train through the middle of most of the interstates, like it is on 400. Right down the middle, with stops at major areas. And the further outside of town you get, the more commuter parking available.
Gasp. But in many places they will likely have to take valuable traffic lanes. I also assume you think the freeways should remain free to use. The transit will also be unable to attract much ridership if it is going to low-density nodes.
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
In my vision, the streetcar should have run on Baker and Highland, Marietta Street, and Edgewood/Euclid. From the Aquarium, World of Coke, and Centennial, GWCC/Philips/Dome, to Little Five and Virginia Highland. It would have intersected the Beltline twice, and been just a short walk through a park to MARTA. I'd like to see one run up and down North Ave. from Moreland to Tech Pkwy. I'd like to see one on Marietta Street and Howell Mill from at least West Midtown to Edgewood (or Baker if my other line was built). The problem is the ROW. Those are all busy corridors, mostly two-lane with few other options, with little room for a Streetcar with dedicated ROW. So, you'd lose the road entirely, which isn't going to pass.
Ah, so you won't support the transit you keep claiming we need because it takes RoW from cars.
I think you under estimate what the CoA residents are looking for in transportation options.
In my vision, the streetcar should have run on Baker and Highland, Marietta Street, and Edgewood/Euclid. From the Aquarium, World of Coke, and Centennial, GWCC/Philips/Dome, to Little Five and Virginia Highland. It would have intersected the Beltline twice, and been just a short walk through a park to MARTA. I'd like to see one run up and down North Ave. from Moreland to Tech Pkwy. I'd like to see one on Marietta Street and Howell Mill from at least West Midtown to Edgewood (or Baker if my other line was built). The problem is the ROW. Those are all busy corridors, mostly two-lane with few other options, with little room for a Streetcar with dedicated ROW. So, you'd lose the road entirely, which isn't going to pass.
Streetcars would not be able to climb the Baker St grade from COP Dr to Peachtree. As has been said many times on here, the current line is just phase 1 and was awarded the federal funds based on economic development of a depressed area as well as take advantage of free, unusable land (under the connector) for the VMF.
Gasp. But in many places they will likely have to take valuable traffic lanes.
Most of the roads are wide enough. Could also possibly build them off a central column, much like the train from the airport to the rental car center, and have them above the cars, with pedestrian bridges from the stops to the areas. And, since my vision is trains that people can ride from the suburbs to the center of the city, maybe you wouldn't need as many lanes.
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I also assume you think the freeways should remain free to use.
They aren't free. We pay for them through taxes. I think this is where you need to get over your personal prejudice.
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The transit will also be unable to attract much ridership if it is going to low-density nodes.
My start vision was more of a commuter-rail type setup, getting more traffic off of the interstates. Oh, but wait...that kill your idea of abandoning the metro area and everyone moving into one square mile, which a large number of people do not want.
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Ah, so you won't support the transit you keep claiming we need because it takes RoW from cars.
Man, you are obsessed. Do you have like a wall full of newspaper cutouts in a room full of candles that you sit in all day murmuring to yourself?
If we can find a way to make both coexist for a while, that's the preference. Taking away pretty much the only useful corridor between two locations...you are right, that's not going to really happen. Might as well close Moore's Mill and tell everyone that everything will be just fine.
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I think you under estimate what the CoA residents are looking for in transportation options.
And I think you far, far overestimate most peoples' vision of "great". I like transit. I love it. I want to be inside it. But I do not, in any way, shape, or form, want to live in an ultra-dense concrete jungle like NYC. I freakin' hate NYC. Love Atlanta's tree-covered roads. If you want to have a dense core, go for it. But give up in this idea that the entire city is going to become this dense fantasyland you dream about.
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Originally Posted by cqholt
Streetcars would not be able to climb the Baker St grade from COP Dr to Peachtree. As has been said many times on here, the current line is just phase 1 and was awarded the federal funds based on economic development of a depressed area as well as take advantage of free, unusable land (under the connector) for the VMF.
Well, that sucks. If they can't climb that grade, then a large portion Atlanta is out as far as streetcars go.
And I am fully aware that the current streetcar is just phase 1. If you look back, I have always been a supporter of it, even though I thought the route could have been better.
Broad Street? You mean the section that's literally a 720' long, two lane road with another road a couple hundred feet to either side of it? Terrible example.
You tell yourself that. Here is what Broad Street used to look like:
It is much better today and the city will benefit from more like this.
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
Ponce through Decatur? It's two lanes for the most part. How much of a diet can it take?
I wonder how you feel about the ultimate road diet in Decatur where they entirely closed off Sycamore and McDonough to build the MARTA station and Decatur square. Five Points station would not have been built either if we were listening to you since that close off traffic for on Broad.
It becomes very clear that your logic is simply not sustainable. If we are going to expand transit and density we need to take space from cars. There are already plenty of examples in Atlanta, but we still have not been aggressive enough. There are many more better examples internationally.
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
My house now is $150 per square foot. It was less than that when we bought it.
My place next to Five Points was less than $40 a sq/ft, even after some fairly high-end renovations I will still be under $100 sq ft overall (and . Of course, I value different priorities than you apparently for example, I won't be building any parking for it. :-)
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Originally Posted by samiwas1
Requirements are: 1750 square feet absolute minimum for the perfect setup (more like 2250-2750), 3 bedroom absolute minimum (would require another room for an office), two car garage absolute minimum, storage for my work equipment, and in a good school district with special education programs. Go.
When I punch up a $325k max, with three bedrooms on Redfin, I find very little in an area I would consider moving my family to inside the city, that offers anything more than what I already have or what I can get in an area more desirable to me. A condo downtown is most certainly not going to work. Anything south of 20 is pretty much not going to happen. And West End? That's a non-starter. And these $300k townhouses a block off MARTA in ? Link please, because they don't show up on any search. If it was just me, I could easily find a place to live. I have a wife and son to think about, and I'm going to give them the best I can, not some small-ass hundred year old house in some neighborhood that's considered "charming" because all the houses are one wind-storm away from falling down.
Here's the thing. You don't know my, or anyone elses', definition of "great". What you think is "great" might be my personal hell. Some people think 1940s bungalows with 1 bathroom are "great". Some people think a 600 square foot condo is "great". Some people think that a place rotting from the inside out is "great" as long as they can walk to a bus stop. That is not my definition of "great". You know what my definition of "great" is? New, 3000 square feet with 4 bedrooms, a large garage, a decent yard, and a community pool, playground, and other amenities.
If you are going to paint yourself into into the suburbs with things like a two car garage then yes, that is where you will end up. So if you want to live in a connected, urban area, with transit you will need to think those things are "great" and value them.
I live south of 20 currently and it is great. Again, you need to get over your stereotypes.
Jackson HS next to my current place just got ranked ahead of Grady as the best in the city.
Well, that sucks. If they can't climb that grade, then a large portion Atlanta is out as far as streetcars go.
And I am fully aware that the current streetcar is just phase 1. If you look back, I have always been a supporter of it, even though I thought the route could have been better.
Really? Atlanta had a large streetcar system , there are alternative, flatter corridors that the streetcars used. eg:https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7526...!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Hosea Williams has many hills, but the streetcar used Arkwright, Woodbine, exclusive ROW, and Oakview to get around those steep grades.
They aren't free. We pay for them through taxes. I think this is where you need to get over your personal prejudice.
Of they are not free to build & maintain. But they are free to use. Which mean I am paying for your highways even if I don't own a car or ever use them.
"I think this is where you need to get over your personal prejudice."
Must have been quite a long time ago. Looking back as far as 1993, it doesn't look that different. Sure does appear to be lot more parking there these days, though! Man...there are a lot of parking lots and decks in downtown Decatur! Seems like far too much, actually.
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I wonder how you feel about the ultimate road diet in Decatur where they entirely closed off Sycamore and McDonough to build the MARTA station and Decatur square. Five Points station would not have been built either if we were listening to you since that close off traffic for on Broad.
It becomes very clear that your logic is simply not sustainable. If we are going to expand transit and density we need to take space from cars. There are already plenty of examples in Atlanta, but we still have not been aggressive enough. There are many more better examples internationally.
Alright, dude...I'm going to try to be clear one last time and really explain my "logic": you keep bringing up examples of one or two blocks of some part of town being shut off. That is completely irrelevant and has no bearing whatsoever on removing entire interstates or miles of major road. There is no comparison.
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My place next to Five Points was less than $40 a sq/ft, even after some fairly high-end renovations I will still be under $100 sq ft overall (and . Of course, I value different priorities than you apparently for example, I won't be building any parking for it. :-)
Great. And I hope you love it. It probably works perfect for you. I guarantee you it would not work for me. How many square feet? How many bedrooms? How old is it? How easy is it to haul 100 lbs of equipment in and out? Where would I store it? How would I get it from that place to the various studios around town? Honestly, how much fun would it be for a four year old to live there?
At under $40 a square foot, even a 2,500 square foot house would be under $100k. If a house is that cheap in town, there's a reason for it. And it's not because the area is great.
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If you are going to paint yourself into into the suburbs with things like a two car garage then yes, that is where you will end up. So if you want to live in a connected, urban area, with transit you will need to think those things are "great" and value them.
I live south of 20 currently and it is great. Again, you need to get over your stereotypes.
Wait, wait, wait? South of 20? If you live south of 20, then you are not "right by" five points. You are, at the very least (like if you live right at the 20/75/85 interchange), a mile away. And sorry, I've looked in West End and Mechanicsville. It simply does not appeal to me. That's not prejudice or a stereotype. I pass right through that area to get from my house to the Zoo on a fairly regular basis. Not once have I ever thought "Oooohh...now this looks like where I want to live!"
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Jackson HS next to my current place just got ranked ahead of Grady as the best in the city.
I guess this is not the Five Points place, because this is nowhere near Five Points.
And where is Jackson rated as the best in Atlanta??? It seems to have pretty poor ratings from what I can find. And the elementary schools in that area seem even worse. Our child is actually in one of the higher-rated elementary schools in the city. Do the schools in that area even compare to Brandon, E Rivers, Sarah Smith, Jackson Elementary, or Sutton Middle? North Atlanta High?
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Here are a few in the Jackson district to get you started:
Sorry, bro. Almost none of these appeal. One is big but pretty ugly and I've been to that part of town several times to go to DH Stanton Park...don't like it. One has the bedrooms but has a minuscule kitchen, and the location...eww. One has no pictures, so I can't even tell what its like. It is on the future Beltline, and that's nice, but is otherwise no closer to transit or anything else than I am now (and $45,000 more than what I own now for the same thing). The one on Orchard Court is a cute little street, but that area of town? Not a chance. And the townhouses don't have any info, so I don't know what they have to offer.
And, I'm almost the same distance from Midtown that these places are, yet with much MUCH faster access. And since almost our entire lives are spent north of Downtown and mostly in the Buckhead, Smyrna, and Vinings areas, moving south has no appeal. You can think I'm "prejudiced" against these areas of town, but they just do not have a single redeeming quality in what I'm looking for. I'm sorry.
Really? Atlanta had a large streetcar system , there are alternative, flatter corridors that the streetcars used. eg:https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7526...!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Hosea Williams has many hills, but the streetcar used Arkwright, Woodbine, exclusive ROW, and Oakview to get around those steep grades.
I'm fully aware of the old system. Love it. If it still existed, a line would run right in front of my neighborhood and would run to many of the city locations I go to. I'm surprised that 100 years later, our modern streetcars couldn't handle such a grade as Baker.
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, there are alternative, flatter corridors that the streetcars used. eg:
