Georgia Senate looking for regional transit solution (Atlanta, Cleveland: costs, vs.)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

fourthwarden, good points.

However, let me ask this. Why not simply add parking at the existing stations and a bunch of new bus routes feeding into them?

The bus routes would be limited by station placement. The nearest station to northern Fulton is, obviously, North Springs. That means that, for the few buses that do run up to Alpharetta (none go further, as I know), they can really only use GA 400 to do it. That means that they're stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, killing their efficiency and usefulness compared to driving, while a grade seperated rail system means that buses opperating in the northern part of the county can use it as a backbone, and stay off GA 400, helping their travel times a bit.

You say simply add parking, but, other than North Springs, the other stations have rather heavy development around them, limiting how mich land they could use to add space. As far as I know, all those stations have decks already built, and are out of room. North Springs could do it, and might should as a stop-gap while the Red Line is extended, but it won't allow for any real bypass.

[primaltech]

I mean, if MARTA was just its original line, from GA State to Avondale, it would still be useful. For people who live/work on either end of that line.

The system that exists now is likewise useful, for the people that it's useful for. Sure.

But the question is, is it useful for the 5+ million people in the metro. Not at all. Cobb, Gwinnett, and North Fulton are not the exurbs. They're where the majority of people live, around here. MARTA is next to useless because it does not go where people can make use of it. I mean, State Farm can build skyscrapers with bridges directly to MARTA station platforms all they want. Until the line goes anywhere, most employees can't use it and so they have to drive. It's a wasted potential.

We have a half-ass, crippled metro rail system. If Atlanta had zero transit at all, and you showed me a picture of the MARTA plus sign, I would say don't even bother. Waste of money. 3 people out of 100 have any use for our dinky stub system. It's a sprawled region, and that simply requires long lines that extend to park&ride suburban commuter stations.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Which is why the 400 corridor should be HRT.

And not LRT or BRT. Forcing transfers is not the answer. You might as well just do HOT lanes if you are going to do that.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by demonta4

I don't see a point in having two different agencies doing the same job. Cobb, Gwinnett, and North Fulton are the most dense areas in the metro outside the core. They have plenty in common with Fulton, DeKalb and Clayton. I don't want to hear excuses. They either join MARTA or they don't. We shouldn't spend millions accommodating them.

I think the Senate's idea is to replace MARTA, not duplicate. B2R is suggesting different agencies managing different pieces.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by arjay57

fourthwarden, good points.

However, let me ask this. Why not simply add parking at the existing stations and a bunch of new bus routes feeding into them?

Transit experts estimate that they lose 25-40% of riders every time they force a transfer.

Transfers add waiting time to the trip as well as making it less convenient. Many of these people riding a bus would be forced to make multiple transfers:
1) from a car to the bus stop;
2) from the bus to the train;
3) from the train to perhaps another bus.

So that's 3 transfers right there. You just simply aren't going to get many people to do that even if the wait time was minimal (which it isn't).

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

The bus routes would be limited by station placement. The nearest station to northern Fulton is, obviously, North Springs. That means that, for the few buses that do run up to Alpharetta (none go further, as I know), they can really only use GA 400 to do it. That means that they're stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, killing their efficiency and usefulness compared to driving, while a grade seperated rail system means that buses opperating in the northern part of the county can use it as a backbone, and stay off GA 400, helping their travel times a bit.

You say simply add parking, but, other than North Springs, the other stations have rather heavy development around them, limiting how mich land they could use to add space. As far as I know, all those stations have decks already built, and are out of room. North Springs could do it, and might should as a stop-gap while the Red Line is extended, but it won't allow for any real bypass.

Well, solutions are not easy.

Even where there is extensive and well established MARTA service (surrounded by intense TOD) there is still extremely heavy traffic, with thousands of cars backed up to get on and off of crawling freeways.

Is it realistic to expect that building new lines out to low density suburbs will produce a different outcome?

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by bu2

Transit experts estimate that they lose 25-40% of riders every time they force a transfer.

Transfers add waiting time to the trip as well as making it less convenient. Many of these people riding a bus would be forced to make multiple transfers:
1) from a car to the bus stop;
2) from the bus to the train;
3) from the train to perhaps another bus.

So that's 3 transfers right there. You just simply aren't going to get many people to do that even if the wait time was minimal (which it isn't).

I agree. A lot of people are going to prefer driving to the station, like they do now.

I suggest buses only to address the issue of people who don't want to drive to a station and are willing to put with the extra time a transfer takes.

[primaltech]

The other alternative that would work fine, is if we never built any rail ever again, but instead built out a massive dedicated express bus tunnel non-joke BRT system, which would be used for transit buses of any agency. Like that first Cobb proposal.

Buses can make steeper grade climbs than rail can, which would allow for deep tunnels with underground stations in the 5 built up core counties, that could combine with at-grade busways and surface stations way out in the outer areas.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I mean, if MARTA was just its original line, from GA State to Avondale, it would still be useful. For people who live/work on either end of that line.

The system that exists now is likewise useful, for the people that it's useful for. Sure.

But the question is, is it useful for the 5+ million people in the metro. Not at all. Cobb, Gwinnett, and North Fulton are not the exurbs. They're where the majority of people live, around here. MARTA is next to useless because it does not go where people can make use of it. I mean, State Farm can build skyscrapers with bridges directly to MARTA station platforms all they want. Until the line goes anywhere, most employees can't use it and so they have to drive. It's a wasted potential.

We have a half-ass, crippled metro rail system. If Atlanta had zero transit at all, and you showed me a picture of the MARTA plus sign, I would say don't even bother. Waste of money. 3 people out of 100 have any use for our dinky stub system. It's a sprawled region, and that simply requires long lines that extend to park&ride suburban commuter stations.

Go look at Birmingham, Nashville, Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, JAX, Cincinnati, Cleveland, St Louis, Dallas, Houston, Seattle, San Diego, Las Vegas, Kansas City, Norfolk, Pittsburgh, Detroit, etc. and then tell me how horrible our rail system is, because outside of the SF and the NEC Atlanta has the most expansive subway system in the nation. No it does not serve Cobb or Gwinnett Counties, but those counties have had opportunities to join and chose to go down a path that led them to serve congestion and car-centric planning. They will pay the price sooner rather than later.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Well, solutions are not easy.

Even where there is extensive and well established MARTA service (surrounded by intense TOD) there is still extremely heavy traffic, with thousands of cars backed up to get on and off of crawling freeways.

Is it realistic to expect that building new lines out to low density suburbs will produce a different outcome?

Which is why building transit lines along freeway corridors is not ideal, but with 400, that is where the development is, so therefore transit must go to existing development.