I-85 bridge near Piedmont Rd Collapses. (pay, how to, dollar)

[jsvh]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

So heres question for you, how much do you want sami to pay for that billion dollar section of I-285 and GA-400?

And after you address that, also address how many vehicles use that section vs the grand total of drivers (statewide) that are paying toward it?

After we address that, let's also not forget that MARTA rail is also heavily subsidized by majorities who do not use it...but they still pay for it...and I can guarantee you if they didn't the system would be unlikely exist today.

It's called public infrastructure because the public pays for it and the public benefits from it regardless of whether or not they use it directly.

You calling it "public infrastructure" doesn't make it a public good. Roads actually don't meet either of the two criteria for a public good of being non-excludable and non-rivalrous.

It should be mostly priced by the market and should be at least expected to cover the costs.

But if we do some back of the napkin math: $11B / 30 years / 400,000 cars a day you get a toll of about $2.50 to cover the costs each time you drive through that fancy new interchange at 285 / 400.

Though, that doesn't include the original costs that built it nor factor in that tolls would reduce the number of cars driving through it meaning each car would need to pay more.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by jsvh

But the green areas are the most densely populated.

Intown Atlanta was great while the highways were closed. Extra train frequency. People and bikes in the streets with a lot less cars.

The highways rammed through intown neighborhoods do a lot more harm than benefit to those neighborhoods.

People from the suburbs should not expect to be entitled to a fast, free driving commute through intown at the expense of us folk in town (in tax dollars to maintain streets for cars, health quality loss from exhaust, reduced quality of life from all the loud cars clogging the street, and loss of life itself from getting run down by cars).

If you are insistent on needing to drive to work from the suburbs, you should probably find another job near you in the suburbs. You may have to make some sacrifices in the position since businesses are finding much more success targeting transit connected intown areas.

That map is flawed in a critical way. The sensors that determine car count are dumb and don't take into account congestion. If normally a road sees 1000 vehicles per hour, but because of a backup, only 250 pass it every hour, then it will report "less traffic" because instead of going past those sensors, those cars are all stopped sitting on the road. So most of that green, particularly the part along I-85, is very misleading, I know, I was stuck in those areas.

Originally Posted by jsvh

You calling it "public infrastructure" doesn't make it a public good. Roads actually don't meet either of the two criteria for a public good of being non-excludable and non-rivalrous.

It should be mostly priced by the market and should be at least expected to cover the costs.

But if we do some back of the napkin math: $11B / 30 years / 400,000 cars a day you get a toll of about $2.50 to cover the costs each time you drive through that fancy new interchange at 285 / 400.

Though, that doesn't include the original costs that built it nor factor in that tolls would reduce the number of cars driving through it meaning each car would need to pay more.

There's one link from your Google result, and it's wrong. There are no barriers to using the road and streets. As to your second link, if you click on non-rivalrous you get this definition:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In reality, few goods are completely non-rival as rivalry can emerge at certain levels. For instance, use of public roads, the Internet, or police/law courts is non-rival up to a certain capacity, after which congestion means that each additional user decreases speed for others. For that, recent economic theory views rivalry as a continuum, not as a binary category,[4] where many goods are somewhere between the two extremes of completely rival and completely non-rival.

Roads are not perfect on the non-rivalrous scale, but they're pretty dang high. Even the example of national defense isn't completely non-rivalrous. If Georgia is being attacked by Unspecifiedistan, then resources are being consumed and taken up that can't be used to defend New York.

[AtlJan]

Originally Posted by jsvh

But the green areas are the most densely populated.

Intown Atlanta was great while the highways were closed. Extra train frequency. People and bikes in the streets with a lot less cars.

The highways rammed through intown neighborhoods do a lot more harm than benefit to those neighborhoods.

People from the suburbs should not expect to be entitled to a fast, free driving commute through intown at the expense of us folk in town (in tax dollars to maintain streets for cars, health quality loss from exhaust, reduced quality of life from all the loud cars clogging the street, and loss of life itself from getting run down by cars).

If you are insistent on needing to drive to work from the suburbs, you should probably find another job near you in the suburbs. You may have to make some sacrifices in the position since businesses are finding much more success targeting transit connected intown areas.

1) Dear suburban commuters to Atlanta: I value your contribution to the city. I understand the joy of owning a home, living near friends and family, near your spouse's job, where the schools are good, and where you feel safe. Let's work together.

2)Dear jsvh: Eastern Buckhead, Lindbergh and the N. Druid Hills/Toco Hill areas were slammed during the 85 collapse. What areas of intown were you seeing less traffic?

[jsvh]

Downtown, basically everything ITP south of I-20 was all noticeably less traffic. It was great.

I welcome people having the option to come into the city to work too. We just should not be putting their interests ahead of the lives of those of us living here. The best cities in the world build their centers around a mix of uses and non-car commute options.

[jsvh]

Matt - That Google search returned "About 318,000,000 results" I am sure if you read through enough of them you can find someone arguing your side. Either way, the economics world (and most of the world) knows it roads, especially highways in a major city are not a public good.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by jsvh

Downtown, basically everything ITP south of I-20 was all noticeably less traffic. It was great.

Dude this seriously cracked me up.

Originally Posted by jsvh

I welcome people having the option to come into the city to work too. We just should not be putting their interests ahead of the lives of those of us living here. The best cities in the world build their centers around a mix of uses and non-car commute options.

I'm all for transit diversity, however; most of the best cities in the world that offer the scale of transit diversity you speak of, do not exist in America, and the political schema of America simply put will not allow for that kind of infrastructure on a massive feasible level.

The people who pay for the interstates however (national citizens) have just as much right to those highways as the locals. It is not their fault that no feasible means of bypassing the metro was concieved.

[jsvh]

There are millions of possible routes to bypass the metro or commute around the metro. You need to move past the notion that you are entitled to have the government provide you a fast and free option to do it in a car.

Amazing how some of y'all think government should drop millions or billions of tax dollars to save car commuters a few minutes on thier commute at the drop of a hat. But safer infrastructure for other modes? "Sorry, not enough money."

Lives > speed.

Also, care to share any South ITP issues during the collapse? Because it was smooth sailing.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by jsvh

There are millions of possible routes to bypass the metro or commute around the metro. You need to move past the notion that you are entitled to have the government provide you a fast and free option to do it in a car.

Amazing how some of y'all think government should drop millions or billions of tax dollars to save car commuters a few minutes on thier commute at the drop of a hat. But safer infrastructure for other modes? "Sorry, not enough money."

Lives > speed.

Also, care to share any South ITP issues during the collapse? Because it was smooth sailing.

Yeah whatever. Next time they throw up a toll lane instead of expanding MARTA rail recite that bolded sentence to yourself.

[AtlJan]

Originally Posted by jsvh

You need to move past the notion that you are entitled to have the government provide you a fast and free option to do it in a car.




Also, care to share any South ITP issues during the collapse? Because it was smooth sailing.

To your first point, our elected representatives should be carrying out the perceived will of their electorate. I do think there are many voters in our city and state who believe in the value of private vehicles and that there is economic benefit to themselves and our area in prioritizing them. No one is saying there isn't room for other modes--hey, the BRT up Northside seems plausible, but let's find a balance--that helps the most people and it seems to me that cars or more practical for more people. No one wants to be taxed to pay for a billion dollar train to nowhere, when they know they'll still need a new truck for work, regardless. Previously you said, suburban commuters should move intown or find jobs in their suburbs. The other side could just as easily tell the urban bike riders to find a smaller, more bike-friendly town to live in.

Regarding the smooth sailing in south ITP: the bridge collapsed in the north ITP area, so of course the north felt the pain.

[jsvh]

I am not advocating for taxes to pay for billion dollar trains to nowhere.

Just stop spending it on roads at let people decide how to spend it themselves. If you want to spend it to pay the tolls to pay for that wider highway, great. You want to pay for fare for a privately run train, great. You want to spend it on rent so would can walk a block to work, great.

Either way, we need to stop assuming this massive highways spending projects benefit everyone equally. They don't. Let people make their own choices.