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I have LONGED for Atlanta do this, I mean to the point where I almost can't stand that this place DOESN'T have one. I know several of us don't want the road to ruin the golden crescent, and I don't mean just specifically in that northern crescent area either.
Example.. I commute from north Gwinnett. I have to pick up my father from work in Newton County. I personally work in North Fulton AND Gwinnett (I work two jobs). I never commute to Atlanta unless I am taking my mother somewhere. So for me, mass transit wouldn't really help me alot asside from taking a few others cars off the roads I travel (I highly doubt it would be impactful for those roads as well) .. I can't take ANY highways to get to my jobs or my fathers job. It's 100% nerve wrecking streets. Going from North Gwinnett to Newton especially is a pain because it requires me to travel through the entire city of Lawrenceville, SR 20 through Loganville, and SR 81.. Then going to and from North Fulton is a pain because only a few streets cross the Chattahoochee and they're almost always congested. I would KILL for an interstate-grade limited access highway between I-85 / Mall of GA area to I-20 just east of Covington. It would make my commute 10x easier. Then of course going anywhere in North Fulton, or to Cobb would be 10x easier as well and I imagine ALOT of truck drivers (most who only come THROUGH Atlanta but not necessarily stopping here) would be at ease knowing they wouldn't need to see I-285.
Last month, I used I-840 for the first time in my life (It's Nashville's southern by-pass but is so far away from the city you may as well consider it an outer loop) and that road is super rural and no traffic. I know that this road is relatively new, well actually only some sections, others have been in operation for several years now. That road does not have many exits and the few that it does are entirely rural greenscape infact I personally believe it's a well designed road. I personally don't see that route becoming heavily congested within the next two decades.
The same goes for Hwy 99 (Houston's outer loop) - That road is about 200 miles long and about 40ish miles from downtown Houston. Although they planned well ahead and you can see by the design of the road that they can easily widen if it they ever needed to, that route is also mostly entirely rural and seems that it will remain that way for quite some time..
I personally don't believe a well planned outerbypass will EXPLODE with development in the Atlanta area.. the only thing that I can see MIGHT happening is a few outlet malls popping up on it sucking up the traffic from inter-suburb commuters (between Gwinnett and Cobb for example)
I know that Atlanta DOES need work in the mass transit department..and I greatly contend to this... but.. Mass transit won't fix everything.. I know this coming from Chicago... Chicago's transit system is state of the art as far as coverage is concerned, but if I want to go from suburb to suburb then its better to just drive.
Like you, having the opportunity to live in several metros, it gives the best perspective. You cited Houston's Highway 99 but readers should know that it THIRD beltway for greater Houston. The Sam Houston Tollway is the 2nd ring finished back in the 1990s. I also lived in DC which reminds me more of Atlanta than any other place in terms of demographics, city/suburb size and bad traffic. They had talked for decades about building Outer bypasses. Nothing yet BUT what DC does have is very good public transit that gets you to most major hubs/attractions. Georgia, not Atlanta, needs to buck up and do one or the other - massive rail expansion or massive road expansion. Raise the gas tax 5 cents and move forward!
Like you, having the opportunity to live in several metros, it gives the best perspective. You cited Houston's Highway 99 but readers should know that it THIRD beltway for greater Houston. The Sam Houston Tollway is the 2nd ring finished back in the 1990s. I also lived in DC which reminds me more of Atlanta than any other place in terms of demographics, city/suburb size and bad traffic. They had talked for decades about building Outer bypasses. Nothing yet BUT what DC does have is very good public transit that gets you to most major hubs/attractions. Georgia, not Atlanta, needs to buck up and do one or the other - massive rail expansion or massive road expansion. Raise the gas tax 5 cents and move forward!
I agree with you, of course I prefer transit, but overall the state has been afraid of large difficult projects, but to keep the city moving forward those are exactly what we need. Widening existing routes isn't going to move the needle and honestly will ultimately be a waste of time and money. Imagine the arterial congestion once things like the 400 and top end express lanes are completed. Its crazy to me that politicians in NC, VA, FL, and TX see the need for funding transit/intercity rail/new alignment highways and other large infrastructure projects in general, but GA wants to stay 20 years behind.
Anyway with all of the inaction I feel like the state is painting itself into a corner where rail will ultimately be the most viable solution vs. very disruptive and land intensive highway projects. These MMIP projects feel like a last grasp at highway expansion. That's probably not completely true, but it makes me feel better about it lol.
Like you, having the opportunity to live in several metros, it gives the best perspective. You cited Houston's Highway 99 but readers should know that it THIRD beltway for greater Houston. The Sam Houston Tollway is the 2nd ring finished back in the 1990s. I also lived in DC which reminds me more of Atlanta than any other place in terms of demographics, city/suburb size and bad traffic. They had talked for decades about building Outer bypasses. Nothing yet BUT what DC does have is very good public transit that gets you to most major hubs/attractions. Georgia, not Atlanta, needs to buck up and do one or the other - massive rail expansion or massive road expansion. Raise the gas tax 5 cents and move forward!
The DC area actually has completed portions of an outer bypass. The intercounty connector in MD and the Fairfax County parkway in VA both roughly follow what would've been the path of the planned outer beltway.
The parkway is actually an ideal model for upgrading SR 20. It has signaled intersections with most cross roads like SR 20 does now, but has interchanges where it intersects major arterials and freeways.
Like you, having the opportunity to live in several metros, it gives the best perspective. You cited Houston's Highway 99 but readers should know that it THIRD beltway for greater Houston. The Sam Houston Tollway is the 2nd ring finished back in the 1990s. I also lived in DC which reminds me more of Atlanta than any other place in terms of demographics, city/suburb size and bad traffic. They had talked for decades about building Outer bypasses. Nothing yet BUT what DC does have is very good public transit that gets you to most major hubs/attractions. Georgia, not Atlanta, needs to buck up and do one or the other - massive rail expansion or massive road expansion. Raise the gas tax 5 cents and move forward!
They seem content on doing neither which is mind boggling I can't imagine what's going to happen to this place in 30 years, the will be forced to do something eventually or lose all appeal as a metro area.
It seems to me that at least half of the Northern Arc should be pretty logistically easy to build. Either as a 4 lane freeway (2 in each direction), or at least as a 4 lane, majorly upgraded parkway version of GA-20. Or, some combo thereof.
Other than the city of Canton, which would be easy to bypass, there is next to nothing between I-75 and Cumming, along that corridor. The only tricky part would be getting it that last 2 miles or so to 400, around the city of Cumming somehow.
I call this proposal 'Lakes Parkway', because it would connect North Atlanta's 2 recreational lakes.
Ramp would fly directly from I-75 north of Cartersville, and would run all the way to Canton as 4 lanes, either completely free flowing, or very few traffic light stops along the way. It could either run next to the current GA-20 (which would be for local access), or in the middle of it, or just widen that road, or whatever's the best possible option.
The interchange ramps already exist to merge it directly to I-575:
Then it would run as I-575 for a couple miles, then ramps back on to the GA-20 corridor heading east.
Same thing all the way to Cumming. At least 2 lanes each direction, either as an upgraded parkway designed for speed with minimal traffic light intersections, or as a full freeway.
At downtown Cumming it would need to go around the city somehow, to get over to 400. I'm not sure how exactly that would work, but it should be possible. Then either a full interchange at 400 @ 20, or at least a Diverging Diamond there.
So then just an upgraded/widened version of the existing 20, minimal lights or delays, in Forsyth and across the river into Gwinnett. Runs all the way over to an interchange with I-985, or again at least a nice Diverging Diamond exit.
Then the already planned Sugarloaf Pkwy Phase 2 extension, which will be a 4 lane freeway from 316 to I-85 right before the Mall of GA. It would be easy to just run that a little further, behind the Target, then new ramps would run north to 20.
So traveling south there right before you get to the mall, 2 lanes would travel left for Sugarloaf Pkwy (as the Outer Perimeter, to I-85 that way), and 2 lanes would stay straight, as the existing Buford Drive through the mall area.
Then you'd at least have a major, wide, efficient parkway type road, between I-75 and GA-316. Some of it freeway (like the Ronald Reagan Pkwy), and maybe less than 15 total traffic lights for that whole length. And with minimal curb cuts, etc.
It seems to me that at least half of the Northern Arc should be pretty logistically easy to build. Either as a 4 lane freeway (2 in each direction), or at least as a 4 lane, majorly upgraded parkway version of GA-20. Or, some combo thereof.
Other than the city of Canton, which would be easy to bypass, there is next to nothing between I-75 and Cumming, along that corridor. The only tricky part would be getting it that last 2 miles or so to 400, around the city of Cumming somehow.
I call this proposal 'Lakes Parkway', because it would connect North Atlanta's 2 recreational lakes.
Ramp would fly directly from I-75 north of Cartersville, and would run all the way to Canton as 4 lanes, either completely free flowing, or very few traffic light stops along the way. It could either run next to the current GA-20 (which would be for local access), or in the middle of it, or just widen that road, or whatever's the best possible option.
The interchange ramps already exist to merge it directly to I-575:
Then it would run as I-575 for a couple miles, then ramps back on to the GA-20 corridor heading east.
Same thing all the way to Cumming. At least 2 lanes each direction, either as an upgraded parkway designed for speed with minimal traffic light intersections, or as a full freeway.
At downtown Cumming it would need to go around the city somehow, to get over to 400. I'm not sure how exactly that would work, but it should be possible. Then either a full interchange at 400 @ 20, or at least a Diverging Diamond there.
So then just an upgraded/widened version of the existing 20, minimal lights or delays, in Forsyth and across the river into Gwinnett. Runs all the way over to an interchange with I-985, or again at least a nice Diverging Diamond exit.
Then the already planned Sugarloaf Pkwy Phase 2 extension, which will be a 4 lane freeway from 316 to I-85 right before the Mall of GA. It would be easy to just run that a little further, behind the Target, then new ramps would run north to 20.
So traveling south there right before you get to the mall, 2 lanes would travel left for Sugarloaf Pkwy (as the Outer Perimeter, to I-85 that way), and 2 lanes would stay straight, as the existing Buford Drive through the mall area.
Then you'd at least have a major, wide, efficient parkway type road, between I-75 and GA-316. Some of it freeway (like the Ronald Reagan Pkwy), and maybe less than 15 total traffic lights for that whole length. And with minimal curb cuts, etc.
Probably so. But that is really the least needed part of an outer bypass. West, east and south are more needed. North just gets people around from northern suburb to northern suburb.
Probably so. But that is really the least needed part of an outer bypass. West, east and south are more needed. North just gets people around from northern suburb to northern suburb.
Yes, the northern suburban part shouldn't exactly be a priority (most people in that area don't have that far of a commute). Yet, I imagine there is a huge push in that area for it, regardless.
And the northern part seems to be the most challenging to build (along with the western part). However, the waste of resources in a given state never shocks, nor surprises me.
It seems to me that at least half of the Northern Arc should be pretty logistically easy to build. Either as a 4 lane freeway (2 in each direction), or at least as a 4 lane, majorly upgraded parkway version of GA-20. Or, some combo thereof.
You make a great point that at least half of the Northern Arc should be pretty logistically easy to build.
But anything that would be even remotely reminiscent of the Northern Arc superhighway concept to residents of Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties (along with regional and national environmentalists) very likely would continue to be politically impossible to build.
Though, for those who may not be aware, GDOT has proceeded forward with its plan to widen Georgia Highway 20 to a divided six-lane surface highway. The first section of the widening of GA-20 (from I-575 east to Scott Road in Canton and East Cherokee County) was expected to be completed by May 25th 2023.
Other than the city of Canton, which would be easy to bypass, there is next to nothing between I-75 and Cumming, along that corridor. The only tricky part would be getting it that last 2 miles or so to 400, around the city of Cumming somehow.
I call this proposal 'Lakes Parkway', because it would connect North Atlanta's 2 recreational lakes.
Well, there is at least a little something (probably more like a big little something) in the Pine Log and Allatoona WMAs (wildlife management areas) that is located along GA-20 between Interstates 75 and 575 in eastern Bartow and western Cherokee counties.
GA-20 kind of serves as kind of a rough boundary between the southern end of the Pine Log WMA and the northern end of the Allatoona WMA that is located north of Lake Allatoona.
Georgia state government currently is in talks to purchase the Pine Log WMA from its private owners who have preserved the land and kept it free of development while letting Georgia state officials manage the land for decades.
Just simply widening GA-20 alone through this environmentally and politically sensitive area between the west side of Canton and the I-75/GA-20 junction very likely will be very difficult. But upgrading GA-20 to a grade-separated controlled-access highway through this heavily wilderness-oriented area very likely would be impossible as demonstrated by the successful public resistance to the proposed construction of the Northern Arc portion of the Outer Perimeter through the area in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s.
Ramp would fly directly from I-75 north of Cartersville, and would run all the way to Canton as 4 lanes, either completely free flowing, or very few traffic light stops along the way. It could either run next to the current GA-20 (which would be for local access), or in the middle of it, or just widen that road, or whatever's the best possible option.
The interchange ramps already exist to merge it directly to I-575:
Then it would run as I-575 for a couple miles, then ramps back on to the GA-20 corridor heading east.
Some irony here is that the ramp you are referring to (the on/off ramp between I-575 and Old GA-5 Marietta Highway that carries GA-20/140) was intended to be part of the Outer Perimeter and was the only part of the proposed superhighway loop that was ever built. And that interchange on I-575 was intended to be an interchange with the proposed future Outer Perimeter superhighway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Same thing all the way to Cumming. At least 2 lanes each direction, either as an upgraded parkway designed for speed with minimal traffic light intersections, or as a full freeway.
At downtown Cumming it would need to go around the city somehow, to get over to 400. I'm not sure how exactly that would work, but it should be possible. Then either a full interchange at 400 @ 20, or at least a Diverging Diamond there.
Unfortunately for the many motorists and traffic using GA-20, building a bypass around an area like Downtown Cumming most likely would be impossible at this point in time because of the very heavy existing development in the area and because of the affluence and political influence of the area in a jurisdiction in Forsyth County that arguably is the state’s most affluent county.
This is the same area that successfully fought and defeated plans to build the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway through the area when there was significantly less development, significantly fewer residents and less affluence in the area than today.
Fast forward two decades and the area has even more development, people, affluence, political influence and resources to successfully fight and defeat an unwanted and unpopular road construction proposal than it had 20+ years ago.
Unfortunately, the best time to build a bypass around Downtown Cumming very likely would have been 40-50 years ago when Forsyth County had virtually no development pressures because the area was still considered by many to not be the most desirable place to live and do business.
You make a great point that at least half of the Northern Arc should be pretty logistically easy to build.
But anything that would be even remotely reminiscent of the Northern Arc superhighway concept to residents of Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties (along with regional and national environmentalists) very likely would continue to be politically impossible to build.
Though, for those who may not be aware, GDOT has proceeded forward with its plan to widen Georgia Highway 20 to a divided six-lane surface highway. The first section of the widening of GA-20 (from I-575 east to Scott Road in Canton and East Cherokee County) was expected to be completed by May 25th 2023.
Well, there is at least a little something (probably more like a big little something) in the Pine Log and Allatoona WMAs (wildlife management areas) that is located along GA-20 between Interstates 75 and 575 in eastern Bartow and western Cherokee counties.
GA-20 kind of serves as kind of a rough boundary between the southern end of the Pine Log WMA and the northern end of the Allatoona WMA that is located north of Lake Allatoona.
Georgia state government currently is in talks to purchase the Pine Log WMA from its private owners who have preserved the land and kept it free of development while letting Georgia state officials manage the land for decades.
Just simply widening GA-20 alone through this environmentally and politically sensitive area between the west side of Canton and the I-75/GA-20 junction very likely will be very difficult. But upgrading GA-20 to a grade-separated controlled-access highway through this heavily wilderness-oriented area very likely would be impossible as demonstrated by the successful public resistance to the proposed construction of the Northern Arc portion of the Outer Perimeter through the area in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s.
Some irony here is that the ramp you are referring to (the on/off ramp between I-575 and Old GA-5 Marietta Highway that carries GA-20/140) was intended to be part of the Outer Perimeter and was the only part of the proposed superhighway loop that was ever built. And that interchange on I-575 was intended to be an interchange with the proposed future Outer Perimeter superhighway.
Unfortunately for the many motorists and traffic using GA-20, building a bypass around an area like Downtown Cumming most likely would be impossible at this point in time because of the very heavy existing development in the area and because of the affluence and political influence of the area in a jurisdiction in Forsyth County that arguably is the state’s most affluent county.
This is the same area that successfully fought and defeated plans to build the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc superhighway through the area when there was significantly less development, significantly fewer residents and less affluence in the area than today.
Fast forward two decades and the area has even more development, people, affluence, political influence and resources to successfully fight and defeat an unwanted and unpopular road construction proposal than it had 20+ years ago.
Unfortunately, the best time to build a bypass around Downtown Cumming very likely would have been 40-50 years ago when Forsyth County had virtually no development pressures because the area was still considered by many to not be the most desirable place to live and do business.
It's still under construction. Last time I drove that way the dirt was cleared out where the lanes are going to go, but no asphalt yet.
It would be nice to have a flyover ramp from I-575 to bypass all the local businesses but once you get past Scott Rd, it's a lot less congested and less stops.
It's still under construction. Last time I drove that way the dirt was cleared out where the lanes are going to go, but no asphalt yet.
It would be nice to have a flyover ramp from I-575 to bypass all the local businesses but once you get past Scott Rd, it's a lot less congested and less stops.
Lol. Maybe they should have announced the completion date as May 25th 2024.
I hope that the GA-20 widening project in East Cherokee and West Forsyth counties doesn’t take as long to complete as the GA-141 widening project in South Forsyth County did back in the mid-late 2000’s. I think that project took about 5-6 years to complete in an environment where there were no real known widespread supply chain or labor shortage issues like there are today.
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