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Something's not making sense here...I just pulled up a satellite view of NYC's grand central station, and Penn Station. The main Grand Central building takes up a footprint of about 100,000 square feet. Penn Stations takes up around 160,000 square feet. Nearly three times the entire population of the city of Atlanta passes through these two stations every day.
Your outline of the Atlanta MMPT main building is far bigger than both of those stations combined. That does not seem even remotely reasonable. Look at the attached image...you'll see the main building of Grand Central and Penn Station plopped on top of the MMPT. I mean, yeah..go transit, but is the size of the MMPT logical in any way? Is it reasonable to take up that much space?
A more accurate comparison would be Penn Station + the Port Authority Bus Terminal. If you put Penn Station and the Port Authority Bus Terminal end to end, they're ~400 ft longer, and represent ~34,000 sqft more surface area than the MMPT (excluding 5-Points).
Keep in mind that the MMPT wouldn't represent two station's worth of rail traffic, but rather a rail station and a massive bus terminal. MARTA, GRTA, Cobb Linc, GCT (assuming both are still a thing at that point), Greyhound, Megabus, and any new Amtrak throughway coach services will all be making use of the MMPT.
Oh, and taxis, hotel shuttles, and anything else in that vein.
Even so, the MMPT won't be as tall as either facility, ultimately being less capacity, which makes sense given your comparison between likely passenger throughput.
Before you, or someone else thinking in the same way, suggests we shrink the MMPT and make it taller, then, I want to point out that doing so would require contraction over the gulch, and right where those buildings are proposed in the first place. That's because the tracks are in the gulch, and they are the access points for all the rail routes. Not to mention the Gulch is where there's actually area to add needed track for more platforms and such to handle a passenger rail hub. This is where the parking structure is proposed to go, which is another huge issue in addition to the buildings.
The elongation of the MMPT is really to create a seamless connection to 5-Points, rather than a function of that particular stretch of track being somehow able to handle all train traffic.
A more accurate comparison would be Penn Station + the Port Authority Bus Terminal. If you put Penn Station and the Port Authority Bus Terminal end to end, they're ~400 ft longer, and represent ~34,000 sqft more surface area than the MMPT (excluding 5-Points).
I must be interpreting the drawings wrong then, because in the attached image, it appears that the red outline is the footprint of the MMPT, not just the smaller looking area inside. This is judging from this rendering. I might be wrong.
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Keep in mind that the MMPT wouldn't represent two station's worth of rail traffic, but rather a rail station and a massive bus terminal. MARTA, GRTA, Cobb Linc, GCT (assuming both are still a thing at that point), Greyhound, Megabus, and any new Amtrak throughway coach services will all be making use of the MMPT.
Sure, but we're still comparing the rial and bus operations from a metro of more than 20 million people to a metro with a third of that population.
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Even so, the MMPT won't be as tall as either facility, ultimately being less capacity, which makes sense given your comparison between likely passenger throughput.
I have no idea what the taller parts of Penn Station are, but the upper parts of the PA Bus Terminal appear to just be parking garage.
Sorry...this thing just seems like it's designed to massive proportions not remotely reasonable for the area. Maybe, the better plan is for them to combine...MMPT underneath, with buildings on top, rather than this vast sweeping art project.
More details released on Gulch plans from this morning presentation before the city.
“Early plans call for 18 development parcels, including three residential towers, according to public documents. The office parcels would range from 8,000 square feet to 84,000 square feet.
Site work on the project could begin in 12 months, with full buildout about a decade away.”
A proposed $1 billion redevelopment of downtown Atlanta, said to be the city’s primary site pitched for Amazon’s second headquarters, aims to create a "vibrant urban walkable district."
Los Angeles-based CIM Group plans to develop 9.35 million square feet of office and 1 million square feet of retail space in the "Gulch," near CNN Center and Philips Arena. CIM's plans also call for a hotel and apartments. A key principal of the CIM Group is Richard Ressler, the brother of Tony Ressler, the majority owner of the Atlanta Hawks.
The vision of the proposed 27-acre redevelopment, which could include at least six office towers, was presented to the Downtown Atlanta Development Review Committee on Thursday.
Early plans call for 18 development parcels, including three residential towers, according to public documents. The office parcels would range from 8,000 square feet to 84,000 square feet.
Site work on the project could begin in 12 months, with full buildout about a decade away.
“The vision for the project is to create this vibrant urban walkable district in the core (of Atlanta),” Chris Sciarrone with project architect Perkins+Will said Thursday. "The opportunities here are tremendous."
The key concepts of the project, which will include green spaces and a varierty of street types, include "connectivity, vibrancy and economic development," Sciarrone said.
“Reconnecting this part of the city (to surrounding areas) is a key tenet," he said. “The project is a way to reintroduce a very lively urban streetscape into an area that is pretty underutilized.”
CIM's proposed development will put an emphasis on transit and walkability. The project will sit over structured parking and provide the opportunity to create an elevated street grid and an on-site pedestrian grid that connects the surrounding areas.
CIM is proposing 75 percent fewer parking spaces relative to a project of its size.
"The site adjoins two Marta stations. We can play up those connections," Sciarrone said. "It's also gong to be very accommodating to cyclists and pedestrians and use all kinds of alternate modes of transportation."
The proposed Gulch development ticks many of the boxes for Amazon's proposed 8 million-square-foot second headquarters, which could create 50,000 jobs over two decades. More than 230 cities submitted bids for the economic development bonanza, and Atlanta is among the 20 cities picked for Amazon's "shortlist." Atlanta is considered by many to be a favorite to land the deal.
The CIM project is related to Atlanta's pitch to Amazon, sources said. The details gel with Amazon's HQ2 Request for Proposals. The Gulch is said to be one of nearly 10 sites that Georgia has pitched to Amazon for HQ2.
Amazon noted it is seeking a “transformative” site that can support 8 million square feet of office space over the next two decades. The Internet giant also noted a preference for sites with access to mass transit – bus and rail.
For decades, there have been plans to turn the Gulch — a mish-mash of parking lots and railroad tracks — into a multimodal transportation facility for buses, AMTRAK and commuter trains that would connect directly in the Five Points MARTA Station.
The project is not designed to accommodate a potential multimodal transit terminal for downtown.
The proposed development is near two MARTA stations — Dome/GWCC/Phillips Arena/CNN Center and Five Points. Two new access points at the stations are being proposed, as is a direct pedestrian connection between the stations.
Meanwhile, CIM plans to provide reduced parking based on the size of the development. About 8,000 spaces will be provided within the parking structures for the development. Residential parking will be "unbundled," requiring residents to pay for parking directly.
"The intent is to provide minimal parking to promote use of alternative modes of transportation, reducing the need for single occupancy vehicle use," according to a public filing with the city.
The Gulch's downtown location jives with Amazon’s Seattle-based HQ1 that melds the urban campus into the city. The Gulch would also put Amazon in proximity to Georgia Tech, Georgia State University and a cluster of corporate headquarters.
Atlanta officials are making a push to sweeten the Gulch site for Amazon. Two ordinances approved by Atlanta City Council offer tax incentives to developers of the site and lower costs for corporate relocation projects that create at least 8,000 jobs.
The Gulch is an attractive site for a project such as Amazon’s HQ2 because of the property’s scale, access to transit, and its proximity to a globally connected airport and universities.
Any site that Amazon picks will be transformational because of the sheer size of the project, noted urban planner and Atlanta Beltline architect Ryan Gravel said earlier.
“The Gulch, if it’s done right, could leverage that transformation to also accomplish public goals, such as bridging The Gulch itself with new streets, connecting the different districts of downtown, orienting growth around MARTA, and putting in the infrastructure for commuter rail,” Gravel said.
The Amazon HQ2 competition could finally bring redevelopment that has so far eluded The Gulch. Several plans have been hatched for the area, including a multimodal station, casino and a mixed-use office, residential and entertainment complex. Yet, an economic downturn created in part by “white flight” and suburbanization choked progress for this part of downtown.
The difference now, Gravel said, is the market is ready for downtown, as evidenced by the redevelopment of Underground Atlanta, the new Mercedes-Benz Stadium and a major renovation of Philips Arena.
“Any plan for The Gulch in the past looks like what Amazon would build, but you couldn’t do it incrementally because of the cost of all that new infrastructure,” he said. “You can build that with Amazon easily.”
I have no idea what the taller parts of Penn Station are, but the upper parts of the PA Bus Terminal appear to just be parking garage.
Penn Station is basically the basement of Madison Square Garden and Two Penn Plaza.
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Sorry...this thing just seems like it's designed to massive proportions not remotely reasonable for the area. Maybe, the better plan is for them to combine...MMPT underneath, with buildings on top, rather than this vast sweeping art project.
I must be interpreting the drawings wrong then, because in the attached image, it appears that the red outline is the footprint of the MMPT, not just the smaller looking area inside. This is judging from this rendering. I might be wrong.
You included the attached Penn Station office building in your original image, and so did I. It would probably be more accurate to include ~half of the U.S. Post Office / Moynahan Station since that's more the extent of the Penn Station facility. That wouldn't reduce either length or surface area, though.
Sure, but we're still comparing the rial and bus operations from a metro of more than 20 million people to a metro with a third of that population.
By 2050, Atlanta's metro will have 40% of the current New York population. We also won't have the equivalent additional capacity of Grand Central Terminal, Jamaica, Atlantic Terminal, or other large-scale transportation hubs or terminals in the New York area.
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I have no idea what the taller parts of Penn Station are, but the upper parts of the PA Bus Terminal appear to just be parking garage.
Here's a level-by-level map of the terminal. As you can see there are 6 primary levels of facility, three of which represent actual bus bays.
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Sorry...this thing just seems like it's designed to massive proportions not remotely reasonable for the area. Maybe, the better plan is for them to combine...MMPT underneath, with buildings on top, rather than this vast sweeping art project.
Unlike New York, we'd really only have one large terminal / hub. Given the population scalings compared to additional infrastructure (or in Atlanta's case, the lack thereof), a building that's similar to, though still a bit smaller than, the combined Penn & Port Authority facilities makes perfect sense.
Again I'd emphasize that any shrinking would need to occur towards the Gulch, and so would not, in anyway, help the proposed buildings to occupy that space instead. The stretched nature of the MMPT is, again, to allow seamless integration into 5-points. The height, such as it is, is to accommodate the track-level platforms, a street-level main hall with shops and ticketing, and an upper level for bus bays.
Sure this could have maybe been built into the base of larger buildings, but that's not what the proposed Gulch plan is showing. The proposed plan is showing buildings being built instead of the MMPT facilities, with a parking deck taking up platform and track space.
The plans have not mentioned the MMPT at all. No indication of integration, or even consideration for future expansions. Until shown otherwise, this development is supplanting the MMPT, and that is not okay.
For decades, there have been plans to turn the Gulch — a mish-mash of parking lots and railroad tracks — into a multimodal transportation facility for buses, AMTRAK and commuter trains that would connect directly in the Five Points MARTA Station.
The project is not designed to accommodate a potential multimodal transit terminal for downtown.
Wish we could make that happen. Wish we could have nice things!
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