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this young person explains some things and fails to mention that NYC Subway is the nation's 5th largest debtor and currently owes almost $30 billion that was borrowed for new rail cars when they replaced the graffiti riddled system back in the early 1980's.
Every year the servicing of that debt takes 20% of MTA's funds and they make no progress in paying down the balance.
New York City politics was not standing still, however. Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, who had taken office in 1933, was no friend of streetcars, of elevated lines, or of private ownership of transit. He pressed relentlessly for “Unification,” the City takeover of the BMT and IRT. The IRT was happy to go out of business but the BMT fought almost to the last.
After taking over the private companies, not only did the innovations of the BMT end, but the City lost its taste for subway building. The IND “Second System” of 1929 remains unbuilt. The private lines that attracted IND competition were abandoned, several immediately and more as the years went on.
. . . It might amuse the modern New Yorker to realize that, back in 1925, the City saw the subway system as a goose that was laying golden eggs for others, eggs the City was determined to have for itself.
And the cost of the automobile infrastructure is still a magnitude greater than for rail.
Ummmmm....huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics
Cost per mile for rail http://publictransport.about.com/od/...nd-Operate.htm
Recent commuter rail start up costs have ranged from $1.3 million per mile for Nashville's Music City Star (a line which is mostly single-tracked) to a high of $26 million per mile for the Seattle Sounder.
....
Cost per mile for pavement http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...d_superhighway
The average construction cost per lane, per mile for highways was $2.3 million.
An eight lane highway would cost $18.4 million per mile.
{Remember, a single track has the potential carrying capacity of 9 lanes of superhighway.}
. . .
I grant that each construction project is affected by local politics and can vary widely.
The Atlanta Streetcar cost some $33 million per mile. Minneapolis' Blue Line cost $60 million per mile. Dallas' extension cost around $55 million per mile. These are multitudes greater than your given cost for an 8-lane highway, yet you're claiming that automobile infrastructure is magnitudes greater than rail? Need more explanation.
Using the Music City Star line as an example of cost is kind of disingenuous since it used existing track.
The Atlanta Streetcar cost some $33 million per mile. Minneapolis' Blue Line cost $60 million per mile. Dallas' extension cost around $55 million per mile. These are multitudes greater than your given cost for an 8-lane highway, yet you're claiming that automobile infrastructure is magnitudes greater than rail? Need more explanation.
Using the Music City Star line as an example of cost is kind of disingenuous since it used existing track.
COSTS OF A RAIL SIDING http://www.acwr.com/economic-develop...l-siding-costs
Rule of thumb for new track construction is between $1 Million - $2 Million per mile, depending on who is constructing the track. Some rail clients need a lot of track space to handle unit trains over a mile long.
. . . .
. . . .
I don't discount the excessive cost that government bungling can impose.
I suspect that the preponderance of overly expensive and limited urban rail projects is a deliberate tactic to scuttle any transition to electric traction rail. These projects are plagued by red tape, bureaucracy, and cost overruns. By covertly supporting boondoggles, the “road gang” can point their fingers later and say, “We told you so!”
The report projected that the final cost for the complete system would be from $65.2 B to $81.4 billion (in 2008) to $98.5 billion (YOE).
https://sf.curbed.com/2017/9/19/1633...ail-california
The $64 billion plan to bring 800 miles of track up and down the Golden State - - -
by 2029
An unreleased Federal Rail Administration risk analysis from earlier this year said the project was running significantly over budget and behind schedule, according to the Los Angeles Times.
I think one should be objecting at THE GOVERNMENT, and not at the rail based transportation system.
Contrasting point: Guiyang-Guangzhou High Speed Railway is 856 km (532 mi) in length and designed to carry trains at speeds of up to 250 km/h (155 mph). The line was built from 2008 to 2014 (six years) and opened on December 26, 2014.
The project cost an estimated 85.8 billion RMB (USD$12.6 billion).
Last edited by jetgraphics; 06-01-2018 at 11:07 PM..
I suspect that the preponderance of overly expensive and limited urban rail projects is a deliberate tactic to scuttle any transition to electric traction rail. These projects are plagued by red tape, bureaucracy, and cost overruns. By covertly supporting boondoggles, the “road gang” can point their fingers later and say, “We told you so!”
Guys! Guys! He's caught onto the scheme. We need to call another meeting to discuss the plans to purposely make that new project cost multiple times as much just to make it harder on those urbanist fabric guys! 12:30 tomorrow at the warehouse on Route 2 in Weekapaugh!!!
Quote:
Contrasting point: Guiyang-Guangzhou High Speed Railway is 856 km (532 mi) in length and designed to carry trains at speeds of up to 250 km/h (155 mph). The line was built from 2008 to 2014 (six years) and opened on December 26, 2014.
The project cost an estimated 85.8 billion RMB (USD$12.6 billion).
China. CHINA. Labor is practically free in China. Pretty sure land can just be taken in China for these things (don't know for sure). And it's a lot of rural land. Still, $23.7 million per mile. Actually $13.8 billion, or $25.9 million per mile, according to Wikipedia.
The proliferation of the automobile in the first half of the 20th century caused many changes, not the least was the need for parking space at either end of the journey.
Compact cities designed around walking or streetcars became untenable, as people migrated to the suburbs and beyond.
Shopping changed from "downtown" to automobile based shopping malls, surrounded by seas of black asphalt.
Suffice to say, the automobile paradigm requires far more surface area.
As population has been doubling roughly every 40-50 years, one can infer that the demands of the automobile will not scale with that growth. Finite surface area - remember?
I predict that economic forces will eventually compel the reduction in the use of private automobiles, and transition to rail based transportation. And in parallel with that change, will be a consolidation of population into more compact villages, towns, and cities.
Those who prepare for that change will prosper more than those who fight it.
Guys! Guys! He's caught onto the scheme. We need to call another meeting to discuss the plans to purposely make that new project cost multiple times as much just to make it harder on those urbanist fabric guys! 12:30 tomorrow at the warehouse on Route 2 in Weekapaugh!!!
For a cogent example of the political power of the “road gang” consider this - In 1963, Alweg proposed to the city of Los Angeles a monorail system that would be designed, built, operated and maintained by Alweg. Alweg promised to take all financial risk from the construction, and the system would be repaid through fares collected. The City Council rejected the proposal in favor of no transit at all... thanks to the pressure from Standard Oil (Exxon, today).
LA's Worst Transit Decision
“A former Alweg engineer once told me that there was much excitement for the proposal at the time, that is until Standard Oil got involved. Practically overnight support for the project disappeared amongst LA politicians.”
China. CHINA. Labor is practically free in China. Pretty sure land can just be taken in China for these things (don't know for sure).
You're so right - labor is so free that poor Chinee coolies can't afford to buy 25% of the world automobile production. Car sales hit record in 2017; 25% sold in China - World - Chinadaily.com.cn
Global sales of passenger cars and trucks are expected to surpass 90 million for the first time in 2017.
27.5 million sold in China
17.5 million sold in USA
. . . .
Uh, no. Land and houses can't be "just taken" by developers.
No one is advocating for just one mode of transit except for the trolls.
If they really lived true to what they're saying, they'd pack up and move to a walking city like NY or Boston ASAP.
Light tail on rubber wheels on a hard flat surface, even dirt for all I care.
Only A MORON would think rubber wheels on a steel track.
Charlotte's just opened blue line extension to UNC Charlotte is about 9 miles and cost $1 billion.
There's so much more required infrastructure than track.
I'm done here. I'm a loser as it is, and even more so if I acknowledge anyone who says their location is Prepperland.
You want to know something else that the big bad gov't. does that's so evil?
There are about 12 secret warehouses across the US that are storing millions of doses of anitdotes and food to keep up alive if we're hit by a chemical attacks or a disease pandemic.
You limited-intelligence freaks should be omitted from getting this stuff if it was ever needed, ungrateful idiots.
If we truly want to examine our relationship with the automobile, it's critical to define what kind of driving you're talking about.
Commuting to work is one thing, but it involves only about 20% of our driving.
By contrast, the bulk of our driving is for shopping, transporting children, moving goods and services, getting medical services, attending church and civic functions, dining out, visiting friends, recreation, etc.
The latter kind of driving is a very different animal from rush hour commuting. Both modes serve different purposes and they require very different solutions.
COSTS OF A RAIL SIDING Costs of a Rail Siding - ACW Railway Company
Rule of thumb for new track construction is between $1 Million - $2 Million per mile, depending on who is constructing the track. Some rail clients need a lot of track space to handle unit trains over a mile long.
You're comparing the cost of a rail siding to the cost of a functional and safe passenger railroad dedicated commuter tracks...
Are you serious?
Different tracks are built to different standards, such as gauge of steel for example, depending on their purpose. The tracks at a rail siding / rail yard of which is generally carved into a large lot within a local vicinity of acres are NOT THE SAME as the tracks used to move freight / commuter traffic between two destinations through different environments, possible geographical obstacles, over railroad crossings, underpasses and overpasses - They are also not engineered to handle locomotives at speed, they are intended only to dock rail cars at a specific location.
Second, the signals on a main or branch line are far more complex and involved than those at a rail yard intended only to keep trains from colliding with each other within a local vicinity or keep trains off a track thats in use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics
. . . .
. . . .
I don't discount the excessive cost that government bungling can impose.
I suspect that the preponderance of overly expensive and limited urban rail projects is a deliberate tactic to scuttle any transition to electric traction rail. These projects are plagued by red tape, bureaucracy, and cost overruns. By covertly supporting boondoggles, the “road gang” can point their fingers later and say, “We told you so!”
The report projected that the final cost for the complete system would be from $65.2 B to $81.4 billion (in 2008) to $98.5 billion (YOE).
https://sf.curbed.com/2017/9/19/1633...ail-california
The $64 billion plan to bring 800 miles of track up and down the Golden State - - -
by 2029
An unreleased Federal Rail Administration risk analysis from earlier this year said the project was running significantly over budget and behind schedule, according to the Los Angeles Times.
I think one should be objecting at THE GOVERNMENT, and not at the rail based transportation system.
Contrasting point: Guiyang-Guangzhou High Speed Railway is 856 km (532 mi) in length and designed to carry trains at speeds of up to 250 km/h (155 mph). The line was built from 2008 to 2014 (six years) and opened on December 26, 2014.
The project cost an estimated 85.8 billion RMB (USD$12.6 billion).
Well if you really feel that this large scale project that otherwise has not even been attempted anywhere else in this nation went overbudget by all means let them know what they can do to fix it... I'm sure they'll be more than happy to listen to your opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics
You're so right - labor is so free that poor Chinee coolies can't afford to buy 25% of the world automobile production. Car sales hit record in 2017; 25% sold in China - World - Chinadaily.com.cn
Global sales of passenger cars and trucks are expected to surpass 90 million for the first time in 2017.
27.5 million sold in China
17.5 million sold in USA
. . . .
Uh, no. Land and houses can't be "just taken" by developers.
Dude... this has absolutely no logical weight whatsoever.
China has a Population nearing 1.5 Billion people.
The USA has a population of about 325 Million people.
Obviously China would have a much higher chance of accomplishing this because they have a larger market than America does. To REALLY look at the numbers, look at the percentages...
At 325 Million people, if 1 individual purchased a new vehicle from that selection and 17.5 Million cars were sold in the USA, that means 5.23% of the population purchased a new vehicle during that time period.
At 1.5 Billion people, if 1 individual purchased a new vehicle from that selection and 27.5 Million cars were sold in China, that means 1.83% of the population purchased a new vehicle during that time period.
The USA still wins.
China's definitely an up and coming and amazing nation but the poverty is definitely still there yo... and trust me... those in position of buying cars and property in china are not the same men and children laying down railroads for practically dirt.
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 06-02-2018 at 03:04 PM..
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