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Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.
The anti-gentrification crowd wants to complain just for the sake of complaining. There's no substance to anything they ever say.
"We need to preserve black neighborhoods for their culture, etc"
Any white person who says something similar about predominantly-white areas/cities/countries would be tarred and feathered as a white supremacist if they said something similar to this. Not listening to this argument, ever.
For starters whites are already the majority of the country, so it isn't necessary unless whites become a national minority group because there culture already the dominate national and regional culture. because of this whites don't have to think of race to follow a heritage and culture create dominantly by whites. Western culture is base on strong European traditions. For example a white American can have European art, eat Pizza learn Ballet or square dancing, grow up knowing a handful of European folktales.. And not once think of race. because of so much European heritage is already mainstream with in America.
In Midwest and Northeast there out right Irish, German, Italian, etc historic neighborhoods.
In the south sometimes the terms like Southern and Appalachian are used often used to refer to the whitest historic things of the region.
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White majority literally make the majority of neighborhoods in ever region of the country. While Black, Asian, Hispanic etc neighborhoods are few in between. just the minority of neighborhoods in a region of two. The difference is stark. this is why someone white talking about "We need to preserve white neighborhoods for their culture, etc" looks different upon because whites aren't just 12% of the country. it's looks bizarre like there's another actual motive.
Quote:
"It makes cities too expensive for poor people"
Okay? Why can't they just move to cheaper areas? What do you even propose doing to halt natural price appreciation? Why does like, 50% of the city need to be reserved for low-income people? Is 20% not enough? It's not like the CoA is low on undesirable areas. Maybe they move from an area that's improved a lot to an area that's still behind. I don't see why I should care about this.
"It's bad because history and blah blah"
I can't think of anything less productive than obsessively basing decisions around things that happened generations, and even centuries ago. It's a completely absurd premise.
People have attachment to the neighborhood they grow up in.
Sometimes. In this one example, yes. Many posters have conceded this point several times throughout this thread. Did you ever address the compensation piece? Or the fact that the NE Intown neighborhoods were able to prevent it while the black communities had no option? But no need to answer these questions. I would prefer that you tackle the one below instead.
Can you tell us the ways that Jim Crow and other subsequent widespread segregationist and openly racist laws, policies, and practices affected other groups in Atlanta to the extent that it affected Black Atlantans?
If anything, the fact that Black Atlantans have made it this far really speaks to the tenacity of the Black Atlantans who helped make the city what it is today. Before you say, "but what about the white people?" White people have done great things as well. But of course, most didn't have the impediments that came with being black in the American South up until the not-too-distant past. And even the whites that allied with causes in support of Black people faced a monumental and deeply entrenched openly racist power structure.
And again, before you mention welfare, handouts, or wealth-distribution. I'm not talking about any of that. In fact, I'm not a proponent of any of that (yet you keep coming back to it like we all think the same). Truthfully, you could even consider me a gentrifier, so I'm not necessarily anti-gentrification. But when it comes to reasons why blacks in Atlanta, Georgia on the whole, have not advanced as far as white people, the reasons are numerous and varied. I think people are in a "tizzy" because you don't seem to even acknowledge that they exist when a mountain of tangible evidence says otherwise.
...and for the record, your comment about the wealth gap between Indian Americans and African Americans has been addressed twice by me and at least one other poster -- I believe in an entirely different thread. Yet you keep asking the same question over and over again. Most Americans do not hold the same negative stereotypes about Indian or Asian Americans as they do about Black Americans. All the many points that people have made in this thread about things that affected the wealth gap between blacks and whites did not happen to Asian and Indian American immigrants on the whole (especially not in Atlanta). The laws and policies set forth that explicitly mentioned race almost only referred to black and white and how they should relate to each other.
If you want, I can tell you about the evolution of Chinese and Jewish communities in Atlanta. Like I mentioned before, I have studied these things. Most of us are educated people on here, so it's a little condescending for you come on here acting like we have no idea what we are talking about...
Just so we are clear here the reason for the difference in white and black household income or wealth is racism. The difference between black and Indian household income or wealth is racism but only selective racism as apparently racists pick and choose who they dislike more between ethnic groups? How does that even make sense? Aren't you either a racist or not a racist? Also, I have not seen one person answer for why Indian household income or wealth is more than white people in America. But, going by your own logic I will assume it is racism against whites. Isn't that how this works? That it can't be anything else like education, intelligence, smarts, habits, interests, etc? The reason I asked those specific questions is because Asians and South Asians are the yellow and brown (people of color) who provide an inconvenient truth for the myth of white systematic racism in America. Who told me this? My wife who is Asian. Is she a racist? Is it possible that there are differences between all these groups of people (black, white, Indian) like spending habits, saving habits, educational degree level and specialties, that perhaps those three groups might dare to focus on different priorities in life? See, as I have told you before America isn't just black and white. The results of income disparities are not defined or influenced by skin color. The culture of the different groups is responsible for the differences in median income. There are a lot of other ethnic groups out there and not all of them have the same wants and desires and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of this comes down to education and valuing education regardless of ethnicity. But you won't acknowledge that because it impedes your narrative. If it were up to my wife my kids would have zero social life they would be studying 24/7/365 but I don't think that is healthy so we have to compromise. If that ends up with my kids making a little less money in the long run or being 15% less successful than their potential I am fine with that because while I value education and believe in it I don't think that is all children should do or focus on. Many others may disagree with me. Why? Because people are different and have different characteristics and beliefs on what is and is not important. This isn't me questioning anyone's intelligence or IQ level.
As far as the I-485 goes you realize this went on for many years? The destruction of those neighborhoods was a prolonged event it wasn't like ripping a band aid off. The fact that 10-12 years later it was ultimately stopped that didn't rebuild the homes that were taken from people by what was essentially eminent domain. It didn't replant the trees it didn't fix the blight and disinvestment it caused and it didn't fix banks not loaning money because property values were destroyed by the clear cut and rubble that was left behind. The fact this happened in majority white neighborhoods didn't stop any of that. Someone not being able to succeed in 2021 America has nothing to do with slavery or Jim Crow and every day that goes by that becomes less and less significant but somehow even 500 years in the future there will still be people using victimization tactics to explain away failures. Such is life.
I don’t live in Atlanta but gentrification is wide spread throughout the country. I feel bad for the misplaced elder residents who live in a city neighborhood that get priced out . I do not feel bad for people who have not contributed to their community but suck all the resources to support poor decisions they have made . Add playing victim , sprinkle in some multiple births to keep playing the system and the icing on the cake is their insane entitlement . No , not everyone who is living in poverty is being deceitful . I agree there should be programs to help those in need . NEED not WANT!
Lately everyone wants to cry about city neighborhoods. Cities should be thriving places to attract business , young minds, innovation. Not swaths of poverty . Nobody enjoys looking at once beautiful neighborhoods taking on a run down identity . Why should those that pay taxes to support social programs , infrastructure, sporting events , restaurants , stores , hotels etc ... feel bad for wanting to live in the city center ? So the folks who have contributed nothing can sit on prime land instead of those people paying for it ? I sound crude , I know but we all make choices . Making a choice on how to live is everyone’s right . With those choices come consequences. Live your life however you like . Just don’t expect others to stop progressing because you can’t compete in 2021 . It’s harsh but it’s reality . At the end of the day , children are provided with a free education. Parents are responsible for seeing their child learn . What you do with that education is up to you . A child needs direction so parents need to be responsible . That way , there’s a future for that child . Maybe I’m being naive but I’ve never met a child/parent of any race where education has been fundamental and they turn out useless to society .
Ending my rant , racism exists everywhere and crosses all racial identities. However , one does have to ask - is this racism or just calling people out no matter what their heritage may be. If you are a do nothing but play victim then guess what your reality is ...nothing. Blame yourself . Again , not everyone is playing victim . Some have tried so hard and keep running into obstacles . Never give up. Life is what we put into it. If you live in a beautiful city neighborhood don’t be naive to think you’ll always be able to afford that area unless you put in the work. Otherwise , off the burbs you go. Choices.
Just so we are clear here the reason for the difference in white and black household income or wealth is racism. The difference between black and Indian household income or wealth is racism but only selective racism as apparently racists pick and choose who they dislike more between ethnic groups? How does that even make sense? Aren't you either a racist or not a racist? Also, I have not seen one person answer for why Indian household income or wealth is more than white people in America. But, going by your own logic I will assume it is racism against whites. Isn't that how this works? That it can't be anything else like education, intelligence, smarts, habits, interests, etc? The reason I asked those specific questions is because Asians and South Asians are the yellow and brown (people of color) who provide an inconvenient truth for the myth of white systematic racism in America. Who told me this? My wife who is Asian. Is she a racist? Is it possible that there are differences between all these groups of people (black, white, Indian) like spending habits, saving habits, educational degree level and specialties, that perhaps those three groups might dare to focus on different priorities in life? See, as I have told you before America isn't just black and white. The results of income disparities are not defined or influenced by skin color. The culture of the different groups is responsible for the differences in median income. There are a lot of other ethnic groups out there and not all of them have the same wants and desires and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of this comes down to education and valuing education regardless of ethnicity. But you won't acknowledge that because it impedes your narrative. If it were up to my wife my kids would have zero social life they would be studying 24/7/365 but I don't think that is healthy so we have to compromise. If that ends up with my kids making a little less money in the long run or being 15% less successful than their potential I am fine with that because while I value education and believe in it I don't think that is all children should do or focus on. Many others may disagree with me. Why? Because people are different and have different characteristics and beliefs on what is and is not important. This isn't me questioning anyone's intelligence or IQ level.
As far as the I-485 goes you realize this went on for many years? The destruction of those neighborhoods was a prolonged event it wasn't like ripping a band aid off. The fact that 10-12 years later it was ultimately stopped that didn't rebuild the homes that were taken from people by what was essentially eminent domain. It didn't replant the trees it didn't fix the blight and disinvestment it caused and it didn't fix banks not loaning money because property values were destroyed by the clear cut and rubble that was left behind. The fact this happened in majority white neighborhoods didn't stop any of that. Someone not being able to succeed in 2021 America has nothing to do with slavery or Jim Crow and every day that goes by that becomes less and less significant but somehow even 500 years in the future there will still be people using victimization tactics to explain away failures. Such is life.
We are having a failure to communicate. So I am going to bow out of this discussion. I will just make these last few points.
1. Nobody said racism is the only reason for anything. But it has definitely been a factor in several things.
2. Racism, like most things, is complex. For many people, there is a racial hierarchy. For many Americans with racist ideas, blacks are often at the bottom. A white person can view Asians as superior in some areas while still viewing blacks as woefully inferior. Like you have said, everybody is different with different influences that lead to what they believe about others. Just like your experiences or the things that you have chosen to believe have led you to infer that something is wrong with black people, but not Indians, Asians, etc. (at least that is what you have said in previous posts... several times).
3. Look up the definition of Racism. Here's one: prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. In America, whites are rarely the group that is a minority or marginalized. Even when whites are in predominantly black areas, there is some degree of reassurance that any black person who harms them would likely be met with the full extent of the law. This is not quite the case with black people in white areas if the assailant is white (just based on previous precedent).
4. I can discuss black individuals who are successful just like you can discuss individuals of any other race that are successful. We can do the same for lazy people. But on the whole, in the south, other ethnicities have not endured the same hardships in recent history, in America, by other Americans for the same amount of time. By your logic, if one black person is lazy, they all must be lazy, and if a few (insert ethnicity) were successful, then they all must be naturally inclined to be successful. I could break this down even further, but there is no point.
5. What do you know about the culture of black people? This is your biggest mistake/misconception. Some would argue that Black Americans have an incredible work ethic and resilience in relation to other groups. I could elaborate, but again, you will refuse anything that does not go with your "narrative". So why bother.
6. Again notice how you are running with something nobody said. Nobody said Jim Crow/Slavery is the reason for people's failures. The basic question was why is there a wealth gap/disparity between white and blacks. That's it. On the whole, between blacks and whites, systemic racism has played a part. Nobody has asked you to do anything about it. We are just stating facts. And even with all that, many black people are still successful.
7. By the time I-485 was on the table, Atlanta was hemorrhaging people due to white flight. At that point, there was already gross disinvestment in the city. After all, do you remember when Candler Park was predominantly black/lower income? This is some years before your days in Cabbagetown.
8. Somebody explicitly addressed your question about the disparity between White Americans and Indian immigrants in another thread. I don't feel like looking for it. So if you really want to know, you will find it.
9. Lastly, are you able to answer this question: Can you tell us the ways that Jim Crow and other subsequent widespread segregationist and openly racist laws, policies, and practices affected other groups in Atlanta to the extent that it affected Black Atlantans?
10. Maybe one day your spirit of ignorance and apathy will be lifted so that you can finally step out of your comfortable little bubble of misinformation. Be well.
The results of income disparities are not defined or influenced by skin color. The culture of the different groups is responsible for the differences in median income. There are a lot of other ethnic groups out there and not all of them have the same wants and desires and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of this comes down to education and valuing education regardless of ethnicity.
If you're arguing that racial income disparities only exist because Black folks don't value education, I'd suggest the statistics simply do not bear that out.
About 90% of the U.S. population has graduated high school, a dramatic improvement in educational attainment that began when compulsory education was adopted by every state a century ago.
But the most striking social shift is the shrinking of the high school attainment gap between Blacks and the national average.
In 1940, when the U.S. Census Bureau started asking about educational attainment, only 7% of Blacks had a high school education, compared with 24% for the nation as a whole.
In recent years, Black educational attainment has been much closer to the national average and today, 88% of Blacks or African Americans have a high school diploma, just shy of the national average, according to census data released last month from the Current Population Survey...
College attainment has also increased, though not as dramatically, and the progress of the Black population has been considerable in the context of rising college education overall.
In 1940, less than 5% of all adults and only 1% of Blacks had completed four years of college. The persistent gap in rates between Blacks and the national average was 4 percentage points at that time, while Black college completion was one-fourth the national rate.
In 2019, both groups had much higher college attainment rates overall, with the national average at 36%, while 26% of Blacks ages 25 and older had attained a bachelor’s degree. Despite the percentage point gap, Black college completion has grown closer to about three-quarters of the national average.
Lets talk about wealth gaps. What explains the wealth gap between white and Indian households? What explains the wealth gap between black and Indian households? Care to answer that?
You're confusing income with wealth. White households still have three times the wealth of Indian households, and those Indian households have three times the wealth of Black and Hispanic households. Wealthy people don't have to work for an income, and I can point to more white trust fund babies than I can Indian-Americans on any software/web development project I've worked on.
If you want to compare incomes, then, yes, Indian households are at the top mainly because they are overindexed in tech, which is how a lot of them were able to come to the U.S. in the first place. With the exception of one, all the Indian-American billionaires in the U.S. are tech execs.
In The Karma of Brown Folk, you speak a lot of the subtext involved in the discussion of Indians as a model minority. Your claim is that white praise for the success of Indian immigrants is at the expense of the Black and Latino working poor. Can you talk a little about how this "model minority" myth functions? How can South Asians resist this "model minority" label?
The basic idea is this: Dinesh D'Souza asks, "why can't an African American be more like an Asian?'" The basic assumption is that Asians are somehow superior to African Americans and Latinos. These conservatives then claim that it is family structure and discipline that accounts for this difference, and not racism, for Asians are also 'minorities.' What they disregard is the historical process of the construction of Asians in the U.S. We came here not as enslaved people, but as technical workers through the good graces of the immigration regime. Our success, I argue in the book, is not a result of Natural Selection, but of State Selection. You have to read the book to see how to fight this, but my main idea is for us to commit model minority suicide!
Seriously? The OP has devolved into this? I don't know if this is salvageable or worth the time to moderate it. Thanks for the reported posts because it definitely needed to be reported.
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