Central/South Cumming or Suwanee (Atlanta, Alpharetta: middle-class, transplants, sales)

[jgooner22]

Hi all, would someone please shed light on what the pros and cons are pertaining to Central/South Cumming and Suwanee? Our primary focus is finding high quality schools for out elementary school going kids, and neighborhoods that are great for raising kids. Both my wife and I will be working from home, so commute shouldn’t really matter. Thanks.

[DoubleZ OTP]

Originally Posted by jgooner22

Hi all, would someone please shed light on what the pros and cons are pertaining to Central/South Cumming and Suwanee? Our primary focus is finding high quality schools for out elementary school going kids, and neighborhoods that are great for raising kids. Both my wife and I will be working from home, so commute shouldn’t really matter. Thanks.

There aren't too many major differences between South Forsyth, North Fulton, and the Suwanee area of Gwinnett County. This entire area -- anywhere within a few miles of McGinnis Ferry Road or Peachtree Parkway in the northeastern Atlanta suburbs -- is thoroughly upper middle-class and wealthy with some of the most highly-rated public schools in Georgia and the United States. This area embodies the suburban ideal very much: most homes are large and relatively-new single-family homes in swim/tennis neighborhoods with lots of children. Most households are highly-educated white-collar, six-figure-earning, and often often dual-income families with children; there are few low-income or blue-collar households in this part of town. There is little income diversity, but there is some ethnic and cultural diversity as there is a significant Asian-American presence in these northeastern suburbs: about 1 in 2 residents is White and 1 in 3 residents is Asian-American, with the rest being Black, Latino, Multiracial, etc. Additionally, many residents are transplants or immigrants from elsewhere, and they probably outnumber native Georgians.

Now, I will outline some minor differences between each of the places you're considering based upon county and school district lines: South Forsyth (Denmark, South Forsyth, and Lambert school zones), North Gwinnett (North Gwinnett and Peachtree Ridge school zones) and Northeast Fulton (Northview school zone).

South Forsyth (Denmark, South Forsyth, and Lambert school zones):
- Elementary School Sizes: Very Large
- Elementary School Start Time: Either 7:40am or 8:20am
- Property Taxes: Very Low
- Sales Taxes: 7.00% (Medium-Low)
- Amenities: Good parks. Big Creek Greenway not far away. No "downtown", but Halcyon and The Collection nearby
- Political Control: Republicans
- Diversity: Not too diverse, nearly 50% White and nearly 50% Asian
- Asian Community: Almost entirely South Asian/Indian/Desi
- Cost of Location: The same home will cost about $50k more than North Gwinnett (Suwanee), but $50k less than Northeast Fulton (Johns Creek) due to relative proximity to Alpharetta and Atlanta

North Gwinnett (North Gwinnett and Peachtree Ridge school zones):
- Elementary School Sizes: Very Large
- Elementary School Start Time: Either 8:15am or 8:50am
- Property Taxes: High
- Sales Taxes: 6.00% (Very Low)
- Amenities: Atlanta's best parks. Suwanee Creek Greenway and Suwanee Town Center in the area. Mall of Georgia, Sugarloaf Mills, Downtown Duluth nearby
- Political Control: Democrats
- Diversity: Quite diverse, about 40% White, 40% Asian, 20% Others
- Asian Community: Primarily Korean with significant South Asian/Indian/Desi and Chinese communities
- Cost of Location: The same home will cost about $50k less than South Forsyth and $100k less than Northeast Fulton (Johns Creek) due to relative proximity to Alpharetta and Atlanta.

Northeast Fulton (Northview school zone):
- Elementary School Sizes: Large
- Elementary School Start Time: 7:40am
- Property Taxes: Medium-High
- Sales Taxes: 7.75% (Medium-High)
- Amenities: Good parks, Cauley Creek Park under construction. Big Creek Greenway not far away. No "downtown", but Halcyon, Avalon, Suwanee Town Center, and Downtown Duluth nearby
- Political Control: Democrats
- Diversity: Not too diverse, about 60% Asian, 30% White, 10% Others
- Asian Community: Primarily South Asian/Indian/Desi with significant Korean and Chinese communities
- Cost of Location: The same home will cost about $50k more than South Forsyth and $100k more than North Gwinnett (Suwanee) due to relative proximity to Alpharetta and Atlanta

[jgooner22]

Thank you for the detailed response, much appreciated!

So sounds like those areas are pretty similar, but you’d get more value for your money in South Forsyth county. Is that fair to say?

[DoubleZ OTP]

Originally Posted by jgooner22

Thank you for the detailed response, much appreciated!

So sounds like those areas are pretty similar, but you’d get more value for your money in South Forsyth county. Is that fair to say?

I'd say that's pretty fair. You would likely also get more value for your money across the Chattahoochee in Gwinnett County, as it's a bit further away from Alpharetta jobs/shopping/restaurants/etc. Homes are a bit less expensive in Gwinnett than in Forsyth, but property taxes are also higher, so it's probably a wash between Forsyth and Gwinnett. I think northern Gwinnett County/Suwanee offers better amenities (Suwanee Town Center, Suwanee Creek Greenway, Settles Bridge Park, George Pierce Park, Mall of Georgia, better and more restaurants, etc.), however, in comparison to very-residential South Forsyth (I was raised in South Forsyth and found myself crossing the Chattahoochee or going to Alpharetta a lot during high school).

The worst value for your money will be North Fulton (more expensive homes and higher taxes than Forsyth).

[jgooner22]

Originally Posted by DoubleZ OTP

I'd say that's pretty fair. You would likely also get more value for your money across the Chattahoochee in Gwinnett County, as it's a bit further away from Alpharetta jobs/shopping/restaurants/etc. Homes are a bit less expensive in Gwinnett than in Forsyth, but property taxes are also higher, so it's probably a wash between Forsyth and Gwinnett. I think northern Gwinnett County/Suwanee offers better amenities (Suwanee Town Center, Suwanee Creek Greenway, Settles Bridge Park, George Pierce Park, Mall of Georgia, better and more restaurants, etc.), however, in comparison to very-residential South Forsyth (I was raised in South Forsyth and found myself crossing the Chattahoochee or going to Alpharetta a lot during high school).

The worst value for your money will be North Fulton (more expensive homes and higher taxes than Forsyth).

Makes sense, thanks for that insight again.

What do you think of other areas in Gwinnett like Duluth, Buford, and Grayson? I am assuming schools there aren’t as good as the ones you mentioned above?

[DoubleZ OTP]

Originally Posted by jgooner22

Makes sense, thanks for that insight again.

What do you think of other areas in Gwinnett like Duluth, Buford, and Grayson? I am assuming schools there aren’t as good as the ones you mentioned above?

Well, whether a school is "good", or not, can be a somewhat subjective topic. I feel that a school rating is largely a proxy for socioeconomic conditions of the neighborhood which that school serves. For instance, one can generally expect schools which are assigned a rating of "9" or "10" or "5 stars" or "A+" to serve many students from wealthy, English-speaking, and two-parent households but few students from low-income, English-Second-Language, and single-parent households. The opposite is generally true of schools which are assigned low ratings.

In South Forsyth, North Fulton, and North Gwinnett, you'll almost exclusively find that the schools are rated highly. This is primarily because the students who attend these schools come from wealthy, English-speaking, and two-parent households and secondarily because of instructional quality or the school environment. For example, at my alma mater of Lambert High in South Forsyth -- typically rated as a top-10 high school in Georgia -- my parents and I found the instructional quality to be subpar for "on-level" students (my AP classes were exceptionally well-taught by passionate, experienced teachers, however). Most of the teachers for "on-level" classes (normal classes, neither advanced or remedial) were very apathetic and spent very little time teaching. Most of these teachers were either coaches who dedicated more class time to football/baseball/lacrosse than teaching, or teachers who were only a few years away from retirement and were there to collect a check and a pension. These classes typically consisted of busywork (like completing a packet) or watching TV/YouTube. A few of my non-AP social studies classes at Lambert consisted of watching conservative and libertarian YouTube videos (mostly Ben Shapiro, John Stossel, Jordan Peterson, Steven Crowder). Many of my peers were quite literally indoctrinated and radicalized by these "lessons". Anyways... I have many stories about Lambert. My point is, just because a school is rated very highly (Lambert) does not automatically mean it's a good school for every student (in Lambert's case, non-AP students). Teachers and administrators are allowed to coast at Lambert and similar schools because they know that parents have the time and money to fill gaps in learning (usually in the form of tutors, SAT prep, etc.). After all, Lambert has the lowest percentage of students who qualify for free and reduced lunches (3%) of any high school in Georgia.

Where Gwinnett County Schools excels, IMO, is in teaching students from less-advantaged backgrounds, such as immigrants, non-native English speakers, and low-income students. Where socioeconomic conditions in much of Gwinnett County would predict school ratings of "3", "4", or "5", those Gwinnett Schools are actually rated "6", "7", and "8". My point is this: due to the significant socioeconomic diversity in most of Gwinnett County, many of the schools are rated a bit lower than South Forsyth or North Fulton Schools but may actually work better for the "average" student as more instructional focus is dedicated to these students; you'll find more "9" and "10" schools in South Forsyth and North Fulton, and you'll find more "6", "7", and "8" schools in Gwinnett (outside of North Gwinnett), but this doesn't necessarily indicate that Gwinnett Schools are "worse".

That being said... Duluth is more middle-class and less "upper middle-class" in comparison to Suwanee. Additionally, there are many more apartment buildings (particularly around Gwinnett Place/Pleasant Hill Rd/Satellite Blvd), which means Duluth is a bit more transient than Suwanee. Schools aren't rated as highly due to the presence of low-income and ESL families, and they likely (but not necessarily) aren't quite as good as North Fulton/South Forsyth/North Gwinnett. Also, Duluth is a bit older, and the single-family housing stock isn't as new or nice. I think you can do better.

Buford operates its own independent school system which is very highly rated. Buford's a tight-knit community, and there's a lot of pride in the schools (and the football team!) and school facilities. Furthermore, I know of a few teachers (one from Forsyth and one from Gwinnett) who began teaching in the Buford district and seem to love it. I fully believe that Buford will become in a decade what Suwanee is now as wealthy (and mostly Asian) households move into the district for less-expensive newer homes in a great school district. Buford's also got a cute little downtown, and it's near the Mall of Georgia and Lake Lanier. I would definitely look into Buford, as comparable homes are probably $100k less expensive than South Forsyth and $150k less expensive than North Fulton.

Grayson is in southeastern Gwinnett County and is thoroughly middle-class with few wealthy and few poor households. There are lots of new-construction homes in this area, and it's especially popular with middle-class Black families, many of whom are transplants from outside of the south. The schools are rated well (but not as highly as South Forsyth and North Fulton). There are two massive parks near Grayson -- Tribble Mill Park and Harbins Park -- which are great for recreation. Grayson feels a bit far away from everything -- shopping, dining, jobs, etc. -- to me. It's a bit less upscale-feeling than the northern suburbs between 75 and 85. However, you would save about $250k for a house in comparison to South Forsyth/North Fulton.