Is it possible to make Atlanta better without losing it? (transfer, live)

[bryantm3]

I wrote something kind of passive-agressive here before. I think I spoke too soon. I don't know Smocaine's personal life. I don't know why he is saying this stuff. I think I have been taking these conversations too personally. Maybe I need to take a break from this.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

I wrote something kind of passive-agressive here before. I think I spoke too soon. I don't know Smocaine's personal life. I don't know why he is saying this stuff. I think I have been taking these conversations too personally. Maybe I need to take a break from this.

Nah, just learn to not always feel a need to respond. We all have that problem sometimes. I'm no exception.

When people start an opinion like, "That guy is a total fart-sniffing academic" you can't really have too much expectations for the quality of thought and opinion you will receive and it doesn't always need to be addressed. They aren't really looking to be taken too seriously.

There are many good debates and varied opinions to be found, but some types of people have learned to thrive in online forums simply as noise generators with brash opinions with character comments and they often try to win a debate not by actually making any good argument, but merely from derailing any other quality discussion that could've been had on the subject.

It's going on right now in a couple other threads as well.

But no, I wouldn't take anything here too personally and I also wouldn't take too long of a break. And quite frankly, most of us that have been around here for a long time like having you around more.

[bryantm3]

Sound advice. Thanks, cw

[Smocaine]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

Nah, just learn to not always feel a need to respond. We all have that problem sometimes. I'm no exception.

When people start an opinion like, "That guy is a total fart-sniffing academic" you can't really have too much expectations for the quality of thought and opinion you will receive and it doesn't always need to be addressed. They aren't really looking to be taken too seriously.

There are many good debates and varied opinions to be found, but some types of people have learned to thrive in online forums simply as noise generators with brash opinions with character comments and they often try to win a debate not by actually making any good argument, but merely from derailing any other quality discussion that could've been had on the subject.

It's going on right now in a couple other threads as well.

But no, I wouldn't take anything here too personally and I also wouldn't take too long of a break. And quite frankly, most of us that have been around here for a long time like having you around more.

Can I get in on this circlejerk? Lmao.


There is an absurd dearth of intelligence in discussions like these, because 95% of people with a brain abandoned Atlanta/cities an eternity ago and are living it up in Marietta or whatever. At some point, people like a lot of the posters on forums like these need a huge reality check about how humanity actually works. You all sound so ridiculous with your pie-in-the-sky delusions when it comes to topics like gentrification.


Let's face it, the Beltline is the only reasonably nice/impressive thing to happen to Atlanta in the past 70 years, and it's not a coincidence that it was the brainchild of a Georgia Tech grad (reporting in!), not some all-talk 'urbanist' professor who has literally never done anything useful in his life. And then that professor has the gall to criticize it because it didn't introduce some sort of communist utopia where there is all of a sudden an abundance of dirt cheap housing in a nice area, or whatever he blathers about. That guy vomits out generic New York Times talking points and then holds his hand out for a reward. It's pathetic.


By the way, I appreciate your attempt at condescension. It's a little cringey when generics like you try to pull the "The Atlantic tells me that anyone who disagrees with me is an Appalachia high-school dropout with a painkiller addiction", but it's extremely likely that my academic credentials are significantly better than yours, and there's basically a 0% chance yours are any better than on par with mine, but hey, you have to play the cards you have, I guess.

[Smocaine]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

I wrote something kind of passive-agressive here before. I think I spoke too soon. I don't know Smocaine's personal life. I don't know why he is saying this stuff. I think I have been taking these conversations too personally. Maybe I need to take a break from this.

The internet is very serious business.

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

Many longtime and native North Georgia residents who may dislike and complain bitterly about the dramatic changes that growth has brought to their areas still very much want the right to sell their their property to the highest bidder if/when developers approach them with a huge check in hand.

Then they are completely hypocritical and are being leeches trying to hide in the PR of just wanting to protect a small idyllic lifestyle rather than the truth: they want to profit off of some poor ******* who just wants to live where there is some opportunity near them. Do Boomers not realize that their profits to retire are coming from the backs of their children? Their children need to make money and support themselves too, anyone's offspring are not in some economic bubble to all the trouble that's been going on with housing unaffordability unless you are Warren Buffett or something.

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that your reference was to something more than the city proper since in this metropolitan age, commute flows have evolved well beyond suburb to primary city, but if that is what you were referring to, then I stand by my original response. But I do believe you were truly referring to something along the lines of the urbanized area, which I think is the closest approximation of what most are thinking when it comes to any particular city (with a few exceptions).

Having always conceived of Suwanee as where "Atlanta" starts when traveling there via I-85, it's also easy enough to envision a time when that wasn't the case and with that in mind, I can get where some natives and longtime residents might be coming from when they complain about all the growth in the region. While every place sprawls, I think it's also easy to forget sometimes just how far Atlanta sprawls.

UGBs have their trade-offs though as they have been cited as a cause for higher housing costs. I think they are more effective as a practical way to protect something geographically special or unique about a place as opposed to simply being a way to limit growth. Lexington, KY is a good example here as its UGB was established to protect the local horse industry concentrated in the rolling hills just outside of the city. Otherwise, utilizing other restrictions on development that produce a similar desired outcome is likely just as good of or an even better option, such as farm preservation policies, development impact fees, large-lot zoning, and open space mandates.

That's definitely better than continuously moving further and further out every couple of years. I don't see how people do that myself.

If you implement a UGB and then continue to develop the same exact way and not revisit the system then yes housing costs will go up. UGBs are not in isolation and with it would need to come serious upzoning in core neighborhoods, by core I do not necessarily mean the Downtown area but just areas of lots of activity, this would be like Sandy Springs (Perimeter Center), Buckhead, Decatur, Cumberland/Battery, etc. I think you catch my drift.


Would those other restrictions be something the city/county etc. could waive in the interest of private interests? This is what happens with very unpopular things like NEW sport stadiums and as a result the taxpayer sees no benefit to a development that can put money back into the community. These need to be UNWAIVABLE things especially if it's some kind of fee or tax so that developers are forced to pay the price to the infrastructure they plan to use during construction, and their customers will need to use. Otherwise we are losing money to private interests with no way to sustain the community long-term.


For more information on what I'm referring to please reference the Strong Towns practice and urban advocacy since it has a movement name. In sum though the movement is keen on focusing on that every project is sustainable and not subsidized by local funds, so that city/county budgets can remain in the green while having good communities. The problem is though is that city/county jurisdictions are very much in the red supporting heavily subsidized exurban and suburban master planned communities in the interest of short-term credit to growth for the politicians and bureaucrats and very less long-term growth of having healthy budgets to support maintenance with taxpayer funding for things like water and electric utilities and also fire, police, schools so that communities can always remain nice and well maintained. So suburbs and exurbs go on a downward cycle and instead of reinvesting in the existing, they invest in the new and shiny, and the cycle repeats. It's an unsustainable practice and I think everyone should advocate that every project should adhere to Strong Towns.


For the record Strong Towns is not implying everyone should pack in like sardines in a Kowloon City type of development. Just that suburban and exurban developments need to pay their way, and end certain practices that are not sustainable or fundable long term like highway expansions.

[2Easy]

Originally Posted by Smocaine

Let's face it, the Beltline is the only reasonably nice/impressive thing to happen to Atlanta in the past 70 years...

NSIS. Atlanta is one of only a few US cities to get underground heavy rail in the last 70 years and one of 2 or 3 in the sunbelt to get it (is SF the sunbelt?). The growth of the airport has also been impressive and is a huge reason that Atlanta is so desirable to business.

[Smocaine]

Originally Posted by 2Easy

NSIS. Atlanta is one of only a few US cities to get underground heavy rail in the last 70 years and one of 2 or 3 in the sunbelt to get it (is SF the sunbelt?). The growth of the airport has also been impressive and is a huge reason that Atlanta is so desirable to business.

The Marta subway is fully-irrelevant in the post-WFH era.

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by Smocaine

The Marta subway is fully-irrelevant in the post-WFH era.

I don’t have any official stats or anything, but I would guess that the overwhelming majority of people who ride MARTA do not have the option to Work From Home.

Just curious, what percent of all working people in Metro Atlanta (at all levels of employment) would you say regularly have the opportunity to work from home?

[MichiganderTexan]

Originally Posted by Smocaine

The Marta subway is fully-irrelevant in the post-WFH era.

A lot more people are going into work than people make it seem like. Study says 40% in 2021 I wonder what percentage of that is hybrid. I would bet in 2022 fully work from home is less than 25%. A lot of people have returned to the office in some way.