Segregation (Decatur, Lithonia, Harlem: real estate, home, buying)

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by AcidSnake

You are commenting on a thread about "Segregation". It's gonna be about race whether you want it to or not. I certainly hope that you are not making this criticism about my comments this late in the game just because what I said may have touched a nerve. It would be intellectually dishonest if that were the case, don't you think?

Also you and others who share your mindset on these matters must face the fact that there are folks here in the south who simply don't believe in sharing what they have with black folks or any other folks for that matter. Think about it: Up until the 1964 Civil Rights Acts we didn't even have a voice over how OUR community's tax dollars were being spent, much less the tax dollars coming from other people.

So now you are expecting that those people who traditionally didn't allow you(speaking metaphorically of course) access to your own tax money NOW share the tax money that they have with you. It just doesn't work like that. The founding of the Cities of Milton, Sandy Springs, Johns Creek, & Dunwoody along with the 2005 Georgia Shafer Amendment is a legacy of that mindset, that southern way of thinking.

Rather than beg, prod, and guilt-trip people who don't share the same socialistic ideal to educate ALL children regardless of race, creed, and nationality as you and others seem to want to do, maybe it's time to re-focus on the notion of funding and operating public schools and learn how to make the best and most efficient use of our tax dollars that we already have. At least we, the black community have THAT right. Otherwise the black community and other communities that are in the same dire straits will be like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills forever and forever.

Bah? Several of your points never came up in what I wrote.

And yes, a few thing are about race in a segregation discussion, but segregation today isn't at all like segregation 40 years ago. Today it's either voluntary or economic. Those who voluntarily segregate themselves are doing so on their own accord. While I find it vile that someone would say they only want to live around certain kinds of people, they are perfectly within their rights do so.

I've already explained economic segregation so I won't do so again.

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I think you are missing the larger context of it all. Those areas like South Dekalb and South Fulton are historically majority black. And by historic I mean going back 35 to the mid 70s.

True, but the same thing can said about kirkwood, east lake, east atlanta, grant park etc, except for white flight happened earlier... like in the 60's right?

But now, like you said, they're the hot places to live. People say that the main attraction to those areas is it's distance from Downtown, etc.

South Atlanta was always black (even when there was forced segregation), but not South Dekalb. Hidden Hills, Redan, Lithonia, Stone mountain, etc. were pretty white until those middle-class black residents followed the whites in to the suburbs. South Fulton outside of Atlanta was very white also prior to white flight...

I just wonder if the same type of gentrification that is taking place in those once blighted intown areas with ever happen in once white, then mixed, now black south dekalb and south fulton counties...

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by equinox63

Dunwoody/Buford Hwy = Predominantly Latino/Asian

Originally Posted by BringBackCobain

And why did you lump Dunwoody in with Buford Highway? These are two COMPLETELY different areas. Please, if you are going to act as an authority on the supposed "segregation" of Atlanta, know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by equinox63

I have friends that live in Dunwoody and their house is directly off Buford Highway. Less than 1 mile. I'm not an authority, I'm just asking the questions.

Originally Posted by Sandy Springs Rep.

Also as other have mentioned, Dunwoody and Buford Highway and pretty different areas , and Dunwoody is similar to North Fulton in that it has a lot of very wealthy whites.

And I'm sorry, but i have to make one more concession... When I said Dunwoody, I actually meant Doraville. Sorry about that guys...

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by equinox63

True, but the same thing can said about kirkwood, east lake, east atlanta, grant park etc, except for white flight happened earlier... like in the 60's right?

But now, like you said, they're the hot places to live. South Atlanta was always black (even when there was forced segregation), but not South Dekalb. Hidden Hills, Redan, Lithonia, Stone mountain, etc. were pretty white until those middle-class black residents followed the whites in to the suburbs. South Fulton outside of Atlanta was very white also prior to white flight...

I just wonder if the same type of gentrification that is taking place in those once blighted intown areas with ever happen in once white, then mixed, then black south dekalb and south fulton counties... People say that the main attraction to those areas is it's distance from Downtown, etc.

It's already happening. Downtown East Point and College Park have been gentrifying for years. That Stewart Ave area is also seeing some gentrifiers move in as well.

I kinda of doubt South Dekalb would ever see the the type of gentrification we see today. For the most part, people gentrify an area because of the historic nature of the neighborhood, it's architecture, and it's proximity to urban amenities.

All of the ITP suburbs fit this mold pretty well except for South Dekalb. It's nothing but ranch houses and subdivisions. That's not sexy at all and if someone wanted to live like that they would just pick one of the hundreds of other neighborhoods that are OTP.

But CAN it happen? Sure, anything can

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by equinox63

True, but the same thing can said about kirkwood, east lake, east atlanta, grant park etc, except for white flight happened earlier... like in the 60's right?

But now, like you said, they're the hot places to live. South Atlanta was always black (even when there was forced segregation), but not South Dekalb. Hidden Hills, Redan, Lithonia, Stone mountain, etc. were pretty white until those middle-class black residents followed the whites in to the suburbs. South Fulton outside of Atlanta was very white also prior to white flight...

I just wonder if the same type of gentrification that is taking place in those once blighted intown areas with ever happen in once white, then mixed, then black south dekalb and south fulton counties... People say that the main attraction to those areas is it's distance from Downtown, etc.

South Atlanta (and Bankhead/West Atlanta/SW Atlanta for that matter) was not always black at all. They were very working-class/lower-middle class white (middle/upper-middle class for SW Atlanta).

During segregration, blacks were concentrated in a few (crowded) neighborhoods around Downtown Atlanta (think Peoplestown, Mechanicsville, AU Center Area, Summerhill, Sweet Auburn, Buttermilk Bottom, Bedford-Pine, Old Fourth Ward, and Reynoldstown).

Carry on.

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I kinda of doubt South Dekalb would ever see the the type of gentrification we see today. For the most part, people gentrify an area because of the historic nature of the neighborhood, it's architecture, and it's proximity to urban amenities.

All of the ITP suburbs fit this mold pretty well except for South Dekalb. It's nothing but ranch houses and subdivisions. That's not sexy at all and if someone wanted to live like that they would just pick one of the hundreds of other neighborhoods that are OTP.

But CAN it happen? Sure, anything can

I feel you, but that leads back to the school quality question. If the south dekalb schools were of superior quality, do you think it would attract superior students and families of various cultures (including whites) to the area?

Or do you think that regardless of the performance of the schools, the fact that it's predominantly black is enough to keep white people away?

Or is it doubtful that south dekalb will become diverse because (although it shares borders with Atlanta) is still in the 'burbs? (Similar to Union City/Fairburn South Fulton Areas, etc.)

[equinox63]

Originally Posted by aries4118

South Atlanta (and Bankhead/West Atlanta/SW Atlanta for that matter) was not always black at all. They were very working-class/lower-middle class white (middle/upper-middle class for SW Atlanta).

During segregration, blacks were concentrated in a few (crowded) neighborhoods around Downtown Atlanta (think Peoplestown, Mechanicsville, AU Center Area, Summerhill, Sweet Auburn, Buttermilk Bottom, Bedford-Pine, Old Fourth Ward, and Reynoldstown).

Carry on.

True indeed. Duly noted. Thanks for the clarification...
(This info actually helps my overall point...)

[equinox63]

Not trying to be facetious or anything... But for the white city-data forum patrons, if the schools were impeccable, (and distance from your job were not an issue) what would honestly keep you and your family from living in South Dekalb County... Anywhere in South Dekalb... If there is a particular area you'd prefer over another in South Dekalb (outside of Decatur City), please let us know...

[RainyRainyDay]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

It is all too common to assume that children in these lower income areas unwilling to learn. In reality nothing could be further from the truth. There isn't anyone in this society who doesn't want to be successful and well to do to the point their family doesn't have to worry about a thing. Unfortunately all too many kids take what they think is the easy path by selling drugs and committing theft. This type of anti-social behavior ultimately leads to felony type crimes. Once you get caught up in this life, the least of your concerns is getting an education.

Regardless of what you think I might believe, this is a complex issue that all revolves around wealth distribution, not race. Disadvantage poor people in South Fulton cross all lines. For every black friend I had that lived in one of the housing projects of East Point or College Park, I had a white friend whose family were what people would consider rednecks who had a family that was 15 deep living in a two bedroom apartment and wore the same clothes everyday that they got from the church donation box. ANd yes, there are A LOT of rednecks living in South Fulton, just not the stereotypical racist kind. This is the area that Jeff "Scholar of All Rednecks" Foxworthy grew up. Also keep in mind that most of South Fulton is rural, and only the area ITP (East Point, College Park, and Hapeville) are urban.

Black, white, brown, or yellow, poor is poor. Growing up where I did I learned that at a very early age because a lot of the kids I grew up with were from a different background yet had the same story. A missing parent, junky parents, or worthless ignorant parents whom always set the expectation that no matter what they did success would never come their way.

The only solution to this problem is to totally reset the living conditions and work environment of this area....

So lets end any speculation that the problems of South Fulton are race based. They are 100% economic.

I think what makes this problem hard is that it's neither race based nor 100% economic. It's hard to eradicate poverty because there's a culture of poverty that doesn't buy into middle-class style striving for success at school and in the workplace. The origins of the culture of poverty may be economic, but unfortunately, just throwing money at the problem doesn't fix it.

In my opinion, the most important difference between the lousy schools in high-poverty areas and the esteemed schools in high-income areas is not the newer musical instruments, better repaired buildings etc. that may or may not be present in the high-income schools. It's all about the home expectations. When all the parents are setting a clear expectation that the kids will get good grades and go to college, that tends to be what happens. When the parents place little value on education (as described in the quote I bolded, above), it's a rare child who finds the self motivation to make a sustained effort at school.

Kids are also influenced by their peers, as everybody knows. Thus parents who want their kids to succeed often tend to be extremely concerned to get their kids into schools with high test scores. I think this concern mostly derives from a feeling that if the kid is surrounded by other kids who are working hard at school, they'll be more likely to fall into step and work hard as well. Conversely, of course, at a school with a lot of students who aren't doing well, there's more risk that one's child may fall in with the wrong crowd i.e. students who don't work hard at school -- and of course, may be putting their energies into other, less desirable activities.

Those exceptional schools that produce high-achieving students in high-poverty areas seem typically to go in for extended school days and even Saturday school as well, because they're replacing hours in the home environment (may not encourage study) with extra hours in the school environment.

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by equinox63

Not trying to be facetious or anything... But for the white city-data forum patrons, if the schools were impeccable, (and distance from your job were not an issue) what would honestly keep you and your family from living in South Dekalb County... Anywhere in South Dekalb... If there is a particular area you'd prefer over another in South Dekalb (outside of Decatur City), please let us know...

Taxes in Dekalb are too high, and prices would be higher than I'd be willing to pay, just like any desirable intown neighborhood.