Texas education - from a Yankee's perspective (Austin, Pittsburg: credit, attorney)

[marylee54]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

What tracey13 said. The work that the kids do in class still has to be graded by the teacher, so the teacher is doing that work times however many students in however many classes, really. And if he or she is a good teacher and assigns substantive work, in class or out of it, then the grading is not as simple as checking off right or wrong answers - reading essays and grading them appropriately, with comments, is time-consuming work, even if it's 4th or 5th grade level essays (what my sister taught). Given that the teacher is otherwise occupied during class time and often with other school-related activities after class time, when exactly are those papers going to be graded even if the work is done in class?

I grant you that there's WAY too much homework assigned in many schools these days. They've lost the concept that these are OUR children and, yes, they, and we, have lives outside of school. An hour or two of homework a night, total, depending on grade level, might be acceptable, but not more than that. But, as stated above, the teachers' hands are tied in many cases.

My children, by the way, didn't bring home homework from the private schools that I sent them to. They also managed to learn MORE in those schools than they did in the public schools that assigned much homework every night. But the teachers had a freer hand in deciding how and what to teach, which makes a big difference. Of course, you have to luck out and get the good teachers or it could be a disaster.

Oh how I agree these are OUR children. Seems our every waking moment outside of school they own. Those blasted busy-work projects consume all our time. We even had projects overlap the Christmas holidays. I do realize those projects are assigned by the school, not the individual teacher, but it still lands on the kid regardless of who assigns it. I sometimes get the feeling the school wants us to provide eye-candy for their hallways and glass cases, that's where many of our projects end up, hey, I want those back! Perhaps they age out of it as they progress into the higher grades, I live for the day when a school supply list doesn't include crayons, markers, scissors, glue, etc. I do know for a fact they don't assign such ridiculous projects in other countries, they actually teach something, no wonder we're dead last in many subjects such as math, science, etc. While kids in other countries are learning calculus, our kids are playing with little paper models of whatever!

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I think the MOST important thing I learned in high school (suburban Connecticut high school, would be real similar to the OP's experience) was critical thinking. Perhaps there's something cultural here? Where conformity and discipline is valued in Texas, free thinking and creativity are valued in the northeast?

Oh, darn. I learned critical thinking in small town Texas schools (elementary through junior high - "middle school" didn't exist then) in the 1950's/early 1960's.

I don't think this is something that we can blame on location (darn it, again, that's SO much fun!). I think it IS cultural, but I've watched it happening not just here but all over the country (now that we have the internet and can talk to people all over - a degrading of education into teaching not the basics and HOW to learn (and critical thinking), but trying to stuff way too much stuff into the schools. I'm not advocating removing art education from the schools, that IS a basic, but perhaps it doesn't have to be a separate class. Same with music. I know from my daughter's Waldorf classes that these things can be included in the main lesson in a way that works wonderfully to make sure that whatever the learning style of the various students is, it will be , in public schools in Texas.

Which is to say, I think that there is something much more serious going on here, a redefinition of "education" that does not serve to teach our citizens to think, and I think it's country-wide.

Which would explain a lot of the mess we find ourselves in right now.

[mlassoff]

I agree that busy work is a waste of time... On the other hand...

It takes a lot of work to learn Calculus. I bet you'd even have to work over the "Christmas" Holidays. I bet you have to do lots of homework....

You can't have it both ways. If you want a comprehensive, and challenging curriculum that's going to take time outside the classroom. Do you expect that great works of literature are read inside the classroom? That in addition to teaching math technique, necessary practice takes place in the classroom and not at home? Perhaps term papers should be researched and written in during class time...

Of course, if we did all this, when would we have time to play football and prepare for the ridiculous and completely reductionisitic standardized tests?

[mlassoff]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

I don't think this is something that we can blame on location (darn it, again, that's SO much fun!). I think it IS cultural, but I've watched

Right cause if we ever stated that some of these problems are endemic in Texas-- and not as severe in other places-- real estate sales might be effected? (or is it affected? I should know this...)

[TexasHorseLady]

Edited due to wrong thread (got two running simultaneously on similar topics with same people - argghhhh!!!).

[TexasHorseLady]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

Right cause if we ever stated that some of these problems are endemic in Texas-- and not as severe in other places-- real estate sales might be effected? (or is it affected? I should know this...)

Not only are agendas pretty easily detected, so is the argument ad hominem.

[mlassoff]

That's in a year... And I am glad to hear its going down.

What about all the books who have been banned in the past? The don't get rebanned every year... The list just grows... Can you find information about reinclusion of previously banned books? Also, isn't the net effect the same if an alternative text is offered>?

[marylee54]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I agree that busy work is a waste of time... On the other hand...

It takes a lot of work to learn Calculus. I bet you'd even have to work over the "Christmas" Holidays. I bet you have to do lots of homework....

You can't have it both ways. If you want a comprehensive, and challenging curriculum that's going to take time outside the classroom. Do you expect that great works of literature are read inside the classroom? That in addition to teaching math technique, necessary practice takes place in the classroom and not at home? Perhaps term papers should be researched and written in during class time...

Of course, if we did all this, when would we have time to play football and prepare for the ridiculous and completely reductionisitic standardized tests?

Oh, yes, learning takes time, outside the classroom, I agree. Just allow kids to learn outside the classroom, not fiddle faddle with busy projects. My whole point is perhaps mistaken here. I'm not against spending time outside the classroom pursuing educational goals, actually, I agree that such time is well-spent, provided that its a "challenging curriculum". But when students have their time filled with make-work projects that are nothing more busy work there's no time left for learning. That's why I took my son out and homeschool. We now actually have time to practice math, research papers, read novels, etc, as opposed to the endless cut-up-paper projects that consumed his time before. (For example, he had a project to make paper dolls dressed ala Civil War era, we probably spent about 30 hours total on those silly things, yes, he learned something about the Civil War, but the time involved in actually cutting and coloring the little dolls could have been better spent on something like learning what a number line is all about. I'm not against homework or pursuing assignments outside class, just assign something worthy of the time spent doing it!

[twange]

Originally Posted by mlassoff

I agree that busy work is a waste of time... On the other hand...

It takes a lot of work to learn Calculus. I bet you'd even have to work over the "Christmas" Holidays. I bet you have to do lots of homework....

You can't have it both ways. If you want a comprehensive, and challenging curriculum that's going to take time outside the classroom. Do you expect that great works of literature are read inside the classroom? That in addition to teaching math technique, necessary practice takes place in the classroom and not at home? Perhaps term papers should be researched and written in during class time...

Of course, if we did all this, when would we have time to play football and prepare for the ridiculous and completely reductionisitic standardized tests?

Yea, I agree. Learning subjects thoroughly is hard work and it takes time. I don't really see the problem with that. I'd rather my kids spend more time reading and studying than staring at the tube. Yes, they do need to have fun and should have some time for recreation. There are of course things to learn about the world outside of school. But you know, that's what summer vacation, winter break and spring break is for, no? When you're going to school, that's should be the main focus at that time.

And why shouldn't teachers set high standards? I don't see being particular about details as "nitpicking". It's important to learn how to follow directions, no matter how tedious. Now, taking off points for a slight tear on a page seems unreasonable but general neatness matters, I think.

I wish that I had more arts and music growing up as a kid(and I'm not just talking about fiddling with construction paper and glue, (but learning how to interpret information and ask meaningful questions). I think it teaches you how to think critically and creatively, two skills that transcend subject. No subject is mutually exclusive. To be a great scientist, you need to be creative. To be a great engineer, you need to think creatively. It is the core trait that separates humans from other creatures!

[chickenfry]

maybe if we "let go" of only having school for 8 months of the year our kids would have a greater opportunity to learn. and remember, when you assign any task to any government, you get mediocre results.
there are some great charter schools out there, there are also some crazy good homeschooling curriculum.
i in my youth allowed the government to school my kids, but eventually "saw the light" and decided that if i wanted it done right it was up to me to make it happen.