Best place to raise a family in New Zealand or Australia…? (buy, income)
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Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
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There are some aspects of NZ that are very enticing to me, not that I'd be allowed to immigrate there. I've become increasingly dissatisfied with living in a corporatocracy where "defense" contractors such as Halliburton have actually managed to con the US into getting involved in expensive, murderous overseas wars (I like to emphasize that unnecessary wars are murderous) that cause immense suffering there, while crippling our economy here. And yet discussion of reducing our overseas presence is "off the table" according to our supposedly peacenik president.
New Zealand pretty much minds its own business and even promotes peace.
There's an increase in hatred and bigotry here from rightwingers. I've personally been a target of harassment from some of them here, but I can't imagine that happening in NZ (not that I know for sure, but I don't think coordinated harassment of individuals by a "neighborhood watch" group is a cultural value there).
If world civilization were to collapse (and it might over the next coupla decades), Kiwis would cooperate with each other and transition to a lower tech lifestyle more easily than most other countries. Also there's bountiful food, enough to feed the population, even without fossil fuels if need be.
Y'all speak English (but do we?) which makes it more desirable to me than, say, Costa Rica or Switzerland. Or most countries that otherwise would be major contenders for my retirement.
I think you might be confused about tipping, Waitstaff in America is not paid minium wage or even close to it. Tips are important but it is a gift for excellent and even extraodinary service.
Waitstaff is paid to provide what is necessary to eat in a civilized society. This would be salt, pepper, sugar, butter, cream, utensils, cup and glass, napkins and menu. These servers are expected to take your order and present food and a bill in a timely manner. They are expected to serve soup spoons with soup, condiments with salads and some sandwiches, steak sauce, refill water and coffee. If they don't, they do not deserve a tip, They are paid to know these things and do them well and efficiently. If one the other hand you expect to be pampered and caered to, then expect to leave a hefty tip because you expected it and your server delivered.
Often times a large unexpected party of 8 or more patrons will receive a surprise 20% added for a tip because your table tied up two servers at least part of the time and three tables. it also stopped the flow of the kitchen output. Someone has to wait while the food for your table is being prepared. If the service is really exceptional there should be a tip on the table, too.
This is how it is sipposed to work regardless of where you live or where you eat in America. If the food and/or service is lousy: complain and do not return.
Waitstaff can expect in one hand and wish in the other. A tip can range from one cent for bottom=feeder service to 1000% from a well known star. Female servers who fawn over men are usually disappointed. The significant other will stop a tip dead. On the other hand a server who makes a women feel like a queen is likely to get an unexpected very nice surprice. Last week I left a $20 bill with the $13 ticket in a greasy spoon. She made both of us feel special and welcome.
Don't forget: Some people genuinely can't leave 15% while cheapskates think a quarter is too much. They desrve equal trement if a restaurant expecents to stay in business. People who really don't want to tip should eat in a self-service restaurant like a buffet or McDonald's. No one expects a tip.
I have friends who like in Aukland. They never complain about food, service or a tip. Judging from the menus I've seen from Aukland I would expect the food and service to somewhat different that what I am accustomed to. "When in Rome ...." Take a vacation to NZ and have a grand time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScooterPilot
I have a question on the "cost of living" comparison to the USA that I hope someone can speak to…Is it true that it is not customary, or necessary to tip the servers at the restaurants in New Zealand? If so, that would be a significant improvement to the customary 15% EXPECTED here in the states. On that note, is Oz the same with that regard?
There are some aspects of NZ that are very enticing to me, not that I'd be allowed to immigrate there. I've become increasingly dissatisfied with living in a corporatocracy where "defense" contractors such as Halliburton have actually managed to con the US into getting involved in expensive, murderous overseas wars (I like to emphasize that unnecessary wars are murderous) that cause immense suffering there, while crippling our economy here. And yet discussion of reducing our overseas presence is "off the table" according to our supposedly peacenik president.
New Zealand pretty much minds its own business and even promotes peace.
There's an increase in hatred and bigotry here from rightwingers. I've personally been a target of harassment from some of them here, but I can't imagine that happening in NZ (not that I know for sure, but I don't think coordinated harassment of individuals by a "neighborhood watch" group is a cultural value there).
If world civilization were to collapse (and it might over the next coupla decades), Kiwis would cooperate with each other and transition to a lower tech lifestyle more easily than most other countries. Also there's bountiful food, enough to feed the population, even without fossil fuels if need be.
Y'all speak English (but do we?) which makes it more desirable to me than, say, Costa Rica or Switzerland. Or most countries that otherwise would be major contenders for my retirement.
Promoting peace is great if the world is peaceful, but it isn't. And New Zealand can't even defend it's own airspace and would be hard pressed to defend it's own borders. Historical record shows the world can change very quickly in a few years. Places that seemed safe ended up not being so safe after all. I think World War 2 was a good example of that. A country that cares not about defending it's borders cares not about being a country at all in my opinion.
So I wouldn't take that for granted or that New Zealand is a place you could stick your head in the sand and zone out from the world. Probably a better place than most, but still.
If you believe that kiwis are some amazing enlightened people that work together in peace and harmony, in my experience that isn't the case entirely. And especially due to the isolation, that can create some interesting scenarios in peoples minds, especially when all they know of the outside world is via piped in television and movies. You wouldn't believe some of the fantastic outrageous things I have heard from people about Americans and it's all obvious stuff right out of TV shows.
Crime is significant in New Zealand, lots of alcohol abuse, meth use is totally out of control, there is some racial tension and strain. Some leftist city liberals are all into the glorification of the Maori people as the "chosen" people of New Zealand, but many seem them otherwise, leeching off the welfare system, creating **** and bull stories to bleed white guilt money out of the government with huge payments of land and money to Maori tribes, being 80% of the prison population for only 10% of the population.
The 100% Green thing is a crock too. Many rivers are polluted from tons of agricultural run off. Air quality, especially in winter is horrific in places like Christchurch, Dunedin and Nelson as people use unfettered wood stoves for heating. I've never seen smoky london fog anywhere in the USA like I have seen in Christchurch. Total gag.
You have to watch on the streets as well at night as the drunks take over and I think it's gotten out of hand quickly over recent years.
A lot of people might see that as negative. But it isn't negative, just realistic and what you might really find for real. I've heard over the years from many people who have never been to New Zealand or spend little time there describe it as some sort of utopian socialist paradise, when it is far from it. They have their problems like anyone else. And it isn't as clean, green and friendly as people might think.
I have some wonderful, friendly, helpful kiwi friends. But I have also met some Kiwis that are rude, unhelpful, discriminatory, anti-American, drunk, dangerous and outright dumb and backwards.
A lot of people wont get that, but that's fine, they have to experience the balanced truth just as I did over 10 years. There is no geographic cure, no escape, the world is what it is, there is good and bad in all things and all places.
I think you might be confused about tipping, Waitstaff in America is not paid minium wage or even close to it. Tips are important but it is a gift for excellent and even extraodinary service.
Waitstaff is paid to provide what is necessary to eat in a civilized society. This would be salt, pepper, sugar, butter, cream, utensils, cup and glass, napkins and menu. These servers are expected to take your order and present food and a bill in a timely manner. They are expected to serve soup spoons with soup, condiments with salads and some sandwiches, steak sauce, refill water and coffee. If they don't, they do not deserve a tip, They are paid to know these things and do them well and efficiently. If one the other hand you expect to be pampered and caered to, then expect to leave a hefty tip because you expected it and your server delivered.
Often times a large unexpected party of 8 or more patrons will receive a surprise 20% added for a tip because your table tied up two servers at least part of the time and three tables. it also stopped the flow of the kitchen output. Someone has to wait while the food for your table is being prepared. If the service is really exceptional there should be a tip on the table, too.
This is how it is sipposed to work regardless of where you live or where you eat in America. If the food and/or service is lousy: complain and do not return.
Waitstaff can expect in one hand and wish in the other. A tip can range from one cent for bottom=feeder service to 1000% from a well known star. Female servers who fawn over men are usually disappointed. The significant other will stop a tip dead. On the other hand a server who makes a women feel like a queen is likely to get an unexpected very nice surprice. Last week I left a $20 bill with the $13 ticket in a greasy spoon. She made both of us feel special and welcome.
Don't forget: Some people genuinely can't leave 15% while cheapskates think a quarter is too much. They desrve equal trement if a restaurant expecents to stay in business. People who really don't want to tip should eat in a self-service restaurant like a buffet or McDonald's. No one expects a tip.
I have friends who like in Aukland. They never complain about food, service or a tip. Judging from the menus I've seen from Aukland I would expect the food and service to somewhat different that what I am accustomed to. "When in Rome ...." Take a vacation to NZ and have a grand time.
That's a VERY good explanation…thanks for chiming in on that subject! It did help to better our understanding. "When in Rome" is right.
There are some aspects of NZ that are very enticing to me, not that I'd be allowed to immigrate there. I've become increasingly dissatisfied with living in a corporatocracy where "defense" contractors such as Halliburton have actually managed to con the US into getting involved in expensive, murderous overseas wars (I like to emphasize that unnecessary wars are murderous) that cause immense suffering there, while crippling our economy here. And yet discussion of reducing our overseas presence is "off the table" according to our supposedly peacenik president.
New Zealand pretty much minds its own business and even promotes peace.
There's an increase in hatred and bigotry here from rightwingers. I've personally been a target of harassment from some of them here, but I can't imagine that happening in NZ (not that I know for sure, but I don't think coordinated harassment of individuals by a "neighborhood watch" group is a cultural value there).
If world civilization were to collapse (and it might over the next coupla decades), Kiwis would cooperate with each other and transition to a lower tech lifestyle more easily than most other countries. Also there's bountiful food, enough to feed the population, even without fossil fuels if need be.
Y'all speak English (but do we?) which makes it more desirable to me than, say, Costa Rica or Switzerland. Or most countries that otherwise would be major contenders for my retirement.
Here in NZ there are a large amount of people that either don't care about the wars in the Middle East or are simply ignorant which will sound very familiar.
Some understand the wars are about regional and resource control which is pretty much what every war has been about in human history. Others believe its about freedom!, which is what they are fed in the mainstream media.
That said NZ is very much a "true" democracy, political parties can only receive small donations from big business and lobby groups are few and far between. Corruption is nearly non existent thanks to our British based legal and political system that works so well in a small country.
NZ is part of the world economy, should there be a major world financial collapse that also heavily effected Asia, I believe we will be more sheltered from the pain but certainly not insulated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo
Promoting peace is great if the world is peaceful, but it isn't. And New Zealand can't even defend it's own airspace and would be hard pressed to defend it's own borders. Historical record shows the world can change very quickly in a few years. Places that seemed safe ended up not being so safe after all. I think World War 2 was a good example of that. A country that cares not about defending it's borders cares not about being a country at all in my opinion.
Wow Wanneroo, I think you epitomise all that has become wrong with Aussies in the last decade or so. A kind of Americanised arrogance. Australia forces are considered small, you would last about 2 minutes in a war with China ROFTL, not to mention with such a vast coastline to defend Australasian forces are abysmally small.
Why the NZ hatchet job? why are you so threatened by Kiwi's? I mean around 70% of Kiwis are European the exact same ancestry, Its like you are jealouse of NZ and feel the need to tear my country down to make yourself feel better?
In the spirit of trans Tasman relations try and relax and watch this
At one point every year with the Kiwi's we recruited to work in the USA for ski season, we did a whole class on customer service and tipping. To many of the kiwi's initially, tipping was an anathema, but after experiencing it first hand getting rewarded for excellent customer service, most gradually adjusted and enjoyed the American system instead. Tips vary, but if you provide good service overall, you'll do well over the long run.
They also got spoiled by the service in American restaurants, you might tip for it, but I'd rather tip well for an excellent meal well tended by waitstaff and have everything I need, than have no service at all and many Kiwis agree as well.
In New Zealand, service in restaurants is a whole other deal. I asked my friends on my first trip what the standard was and they said you pretty much didn't have to tip and that some people might leave some coins or maybe 10% if it was really exceptional. Overall I would describe the service experience in NZ restaurants as "reluctant". I'm almost surprised sometimes they don't make you get up and cook your own food. Getting the menu, getting a drink, getting a refill, getting your food, getting a bill, paying, etc. is like trying to suck an onion through a straw. I like eating out, but quite often in NZ, I just got tired of the death march required to eat dinner, so I often just cook my own dinner in my apartment instead. Probably the best experience overall I've had is with the Lone Star chain in NZ. In most cases the servers seem to make an effort to be more friendly and helpful at Lone Star.
The other bizarre thing I found with New Zealand restaurants is if you dine alone, they like to find the largest empty table to seat you at. I remember a few 10-12 person tables I have been seated at along with several 8 person tables, when there are plenty of 2 or 4 person tables free. It's like they want to embarrass you or say how dare you eat alone! LOL!
Promoting peace is great if the world is peaceful, but it isn't. And New Zealand can't even defend it's own airspace and would be hard pressed to defend it's own borders. Historical record shows the world can change very quickly in a few years. Places that seemed safe ended up not being so safe after all. I think World War 2 was a good example of that. A country that cares not about defending it's borders cares not about being a country at all in my opinion.
So I wouldn't take that for granted or that New Zealand is a place you could stick your head in the sand and zone out from the world. Probably a better place than most, but still.
If you believe that kiwis are some amazing enlightened people that work together in peace and harmony, in my experience that isn't the case entirely. And especially due to the isolation, that can create some interesting scenarios in peoples minds, especially when all they know of the outside world is via piped in television and movies. You wouldn't believe some of the fantastic outrageous things I have heard from people about Americans and it's all obvious stuff right out of TV shows.
Crime is significant in New Zealand, lots of alcohol abuse, meth use is totally out of control, there is some racial tension and strain. Some leftist city liberals are all into the glorification of the Maori people as the "chosen" people of New Zealand, but many seem them otherwise, leeching off the welfare system, creating **** and bull stories to bleed white guilt money out of the government with huge payments of land and money to Maori tribes, being 80% of the prison population for only 10% of the population.
The 100% Green thing is a crock too. Many rivers are polluted from tons of agricultural run off. Air quality, especially in winter is horrific in places like Christchurch, Dunedin and Nelson as people use unfettered wood stoves for heating. I've never seen smoky london fog anywhere in the USA like I have seen in Christchurch. Total gag.
You have to watch on the streets as well at night as the drunks take over and I think it's gotten out of hand quickly over recent years.
A lot of people might see that as negative. But it isn't negative, just realistic and what you might really find for real. I've heard over the years from many people who have never been to New Zealand or spend little time there describe it as some sort of utopian socialist paradise, when it is far from it. They have their problems like anyone else. And it isn't as clean, green and friendly as people might think.
I have some wonderful, friendly, helpful kiwi friends. But I have also met some Kiwis that are rude, unhelpful, discriminatory, anti-American, drunk, dangerous and outright dumb and backwards.
A lot of people wont get that, but that's fine, they have to experience the balanced truth just as I did over 10 years. There is no geographic cure, no escape, the world is what it is, there is good and bad in all things and all places.
Oh come on Wanneroo
I know you have a soft spot for NZ but you are way too hard sometimes.
Examples:
- Pollution is generally not all that bad. Contrast to LA .... now that is really bad ....crud that is there most of the time. And I don't think I ever took a clean breath in NYC.
-Parochialism is present in all countries ... just depends where you go and who you know
-Crime is terrible in the US. We don't have toddlers getting gunned down.
You wont get carjacked at gunpoint in NZ. Yes we have our trouble spots but it is possible to move through them safely. I been lost in bad areas of Houston and Miami and it was a pretty bad experience indeed.
-Drugs and alcohol are an issue ....name one place where they are not. Crack cocaine was a huge problem in the US way before it grew here.
One has to pick the right place for them.
I see the US as good for career and business (still) and especially good for high achievers ..... and not so good for those who are old, sick, poor, just average and just down on their luck.
I see NZ is particularly good for those with means who seek an outdoorsy life, slower pace and amazing scenery
At one point every year with the Kiwi's we recruited to work in the USA for ski season, we did a whole class on customer service and tipping. To many of the kiwi's initially, tipping was an anathema, but after experiencing it first hand getting rewarded for excellent customer service, most gradually adjusted and enjoyed the American system instead. Tips vary, but if you provide good service overall, you'll do well over the long run.
They also got spoiled by the service in American restaurants, you might tip for it, but I'd rather tip well for an excellent meal well tended by waitstaff and have everything I need, than have no service at all and many Kiwis agree as well.
In New Zealand, service in restaurants is a whole other deal. I asked my friends on my first trip what the standard was and they said you pretty much didn't have to tip and that some people might leave some coins or maybe 10% if it was really exceptional. Overall I would describe the service experience in NZ restaurants as "reluctant". I'm almost surprised sometimes they don't make you get up and cook your own food. Getting the menu, getting a drink, getting a refill, getting your food, getting a bill, paying, etc. is like trying to suck an onion through a straw. I like eating out, but quite often in NZ, I just got tired of the death march required to eat dinner, so I often just cook my own dinner in my apartment instead. Probably the best experience overall I've had is with the Lone Star chain in NZ. In most cases the servers seem to make an effort to be more friendly and helpful at Lone Star.
The other bizarre thing I found with New Zealand restaurants is if you dine alone, they like to find the largest empty table to seat you at. I remember a few 10-12 person tables I have been seated at along with several 8 person tables, when there are plenty of 2 or 4 person tables free. It's like they want to embarrass you or say how dare you eat alone! LOL!
Tipping is all fine and dandy
I tip properly when I go to the US
However I'm a bit lerry of it .... shouldn't the US business owner pay their wait staff better?
If they are making a good profit then why is the customer expected to pay the staffs wages?
Suppose in the end it makes little difference ... the customer pays for staff costs one way or another
-Crime is terrible in the US. We don't have toddlers getting gunned down.
You wont get carjacked at gunpoint in NZ.
This reminds me of a conversation I had around a week ago.
I have a new IT work Mate born in Perth with NZ parents that emigrated to NZ around 6 months ago. He came to Christchurh "after" the September quake so was a little curious have to be honest.
He stated he couldn't stand Perth any more. Said words to the effect of, cant go out and have a few drinks without some cashed up drugged up miner trying to start a knife fight.
Also stated drugs have become a massive problem over there and organised gangs. He was burgled 4 times in 14 months police showed up once!
He says the Christchurch Earthquakes are nothing compared to what he endured over there. His wife an Australasian felt the same way.
I know you have a soft spot for NZ but you are way too hard sometimes.
Examples:
- Pollution is generally not all that bad. Contrast to LA .... now that is really bad ....crud that is there most of the time. And I don't think I ever took a clean breath in NYC.
-Parochialism is present in all countries ... just depends where you go and who you know
-Crime is terrible in the US. We don't have toddlers getting gunned down.
You wont get carjacked at gunpoint in NZ. Yes we have our trouble spots but it is possible to move through them safely. I been lost in bad areas of Houston and Miami and it was a pretty bad experience indeed.
-Drugs and alcohol are an issue ....name one place where they are not. Crack cocaine was a huge problem in the US way before it grew here.
One has to pick the right place for them.
I see the US as good for career and business (still) and especially good for high achievers ..... and not so good for those who are old, sick, poor, just average and just down on their luck.
I see NZ is particularly good for those with means who seek an outdoorsy life, slower pace and amazing scenery
My point isn't that you wont find those things in the USA, just that NZ has some of the same issues. 310 million to 4 million people is almost apples to oranges, so the problems are on a smaller scale.
What I am trying to emphasize is that New Zealand is not some utopian fantasy land, 100% green, 100% pure, where people fart rainbows and dance through the meadows arm in arm without stepping in sheep poo.
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American restaurants.
