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You've already put more time, effort, and thought into this than it would be worth to me. And you haven't even received a ticket yet.
If you do get a ticket for going 43 in a 30, sure, go to court. Take a picture of the sign stating that the lower speed limit is for school days only and a copy of the school calendar showing that school wasn't in session on that date. Heck, take the documentation to the clerk's office and you might not even have to go to court (been there, done that).
If you get a ticket for going 43 in a 40, pay it and get on with your life.
I once got nailed doing 41 in a 25 mph area....Grinding me teeth for a few days, then it hit me...I then went back to the area and drove at 25 mph both sides of the road (One way) and filmed it.
Then pled "Not guilty" and got a court date. The fun thing was the judge said "If I find you guilty, the fine stands and so does court costs" I agreed and showed him the film. There was NO signs saying 25 mph.... Judge smiled, threw the case out, congratulated me and two weeks later, they had the signs up.
So fight the ticket, you have good cause to win it.
Fight it. The sign says School Days and we all know that the middle of the summer is not a school day. If they decided upon themselves to include summer activities, they should have the signage changed to just simply state Monday through Friday 7AM - 4PM so it will be clear. I believe you have a very valid argument that any reasonable citizen driver would interpret the current signage to only apply to actual school days not summer activities.
You've already put more time, effort, and thought into this than it would be worth to me. And you haven't even received a ticket yet.
If you do get a ticket for going 43 in a 30, sure, go to court. Take a picture of the sign stating that the lower speed limit is for school days only and a copy of the school calendar showing that school wasn't in session on that date. Heck, take the documentation to the clerk's office and you might not even have to go to court (been there, done that).
If you get a ticket for going 43 in a 40, pay it and get on with your life.
That's true. What can I tell you? I enjoy a good debate and this thread was to help me consider any action I may have not considered or even missed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dijkstra
Fight it. The sign says School Days and we all know that the middle of the summer is not a school day. If they decided upon themselves to include summer activities, they should have the signage changed to just simply state Monday through Friday 7AM - 4PM so it will be clear. I believe you have a very valid argument that any reasonable citizen driver would interpret the current signage to only apply to actual school days not summer activities.
Thanks for your input. That's my thought also.
FWIW, I just drove through the school zone coming west just as I did the other day. The photo radar was set up and operating. I had already reduced my speed when I hit the zone and just in case they're also gathering video, I did flip off that inanimate object. I may be old but I'll never grow up.
At this point, I think they're doing it as a cash grab for those not willing to go to court. If they wanted to increase awareness, they could park a small trailer which contains a radar and displays your speed but doesn't generate a ticket.
Thanks to all who offered input. I'll update this thread on Monday after court!
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,585 posts, read 81,186,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duster1979
You've already put more time, effort, and thought into this than it would be worth to me. And you haven't even received a ticket yet.
If you do get a ticket for going 43 in a 30, sure, go to court. Take a picture of the sign stating that the lower speed limit is for school days only and a copy of the school calendar showing that school wasn't in session on that date. Heck, take the documentation to the clerk's office and you might not even have to go to court (been there, done that).
If you get a ticket for going 43 in a 40, pay it and get on with your life.
I agree with this. The judge will likely understand the issue of school being out for the summer and the misleading sign. If you are fighting a ticket for going 3 mph over which you admit to, he/she might resent wasting court time. Most officers would let that slide, in fact at traffic school once in California the highway patrol officer told us that with so many speeders they don't stop anyone unless they are at least 10 mph over. The camera, however does not make that distinction, 3 over is still over.
Do request discovery from the local PD, AND local DA, if they send a prosecutor to traffic court. In CA they don't so discoveries are normally sent to the ticketing agency (local PD, CHP) Send the discovery request via certified and signed for mail. Keep delivery receipt. Discovery should include radar make/model, last date of radar calibration, name/title of installer, installer's certification on radar installation and when it was obtained, date radar was installed, date radar was purchased. in CA (check your state) we have provisions on radar equipment that it must be maintained/serviced within a certain timeframe (2 yrs) and the operator (in your case installer) must be licensed/trained/certified, also, within a certain timeframe.
Do contact the school and ask, via email or snail mail (not phone/in person) whether there were any school related activities on that day and the timing of such activities. They're not likely to reply, but you cover your own bases.
Do go to court and plead not guilty. They will assign you a date to go and contest the ticket. On that day bring your discovery request, delivery receipt, discovery documents mailed to you if any, email to school and their reply, if any.
If you haven't gotten any reply to the discovery request, keep this in mind: the second the judge starts talking, the trial has begun. DO interrupt the judge and say that you've requested discovery and not received anything. Present documents. Ask the case be dismissed on those grounds. Judge may say yes, and you go. Judge may say no and assign a new trial date, and compel the DA or local PD to produce requested documents. Remind judge that you have the right to a speedy trial (look up speedy trial rules in AZ) and if the new trial date falls AFTER the speedy trial timeframe (usually 45-60 days from arraignment or date you pleaded) then ask for the case to be dismissed. Judge may ALSO say "review them now from the witness (local PD present (in CA they act as witnesses for the state) or DA prosecutor" Refuse, saying that the time allotted would not allow you to mount a proper defense and that would be a violation of your constitutional right to a fair trial.
No guarantees... just so you know I got out of a 500 dollar speeding ticket for 85 in a 60 zone by simply requesting discovery from CHP. They didn't provide it and on the day of court the ticketing officer HIMSELF asked the judge to dismiss the charges. My guess, they would have had to provide information that would have been enough to dismiss my case.
Don't:
Don't present your in car recording with captured speed. That's proof that you exceed the speed limit, whether it's 30 or 40. Don't say you HAVE any such recording or any recording equipment. They can order you to bring it.
Don't admit guilt.
Don't say you were going the speed limit. Give the actual number of the speed limit, and that's your speed.
60 year old driver, haven't had a ticket since 1988 absent a couple of photo radar tickets which were never served to me and thus, expired in the system and dropped out. I haven't had an at-fault accident since 2002. I don't claim to be a good driver but rather a cautious one whose years of motorcycle riding and bike riding has taught to anticipate someone's actions before they act.
A few days ago, I was on my way to the store and drove through a school zone. School is out at this location and there were only a few cars in the parking lot.
The signage in front of the school is obvious and clear and yes, I read it as I went by:
7/30 MEET THE TEACHER 5:30 - 7 PM
8/2 FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL
I've very much aware of this school. I drive this street and two other school zones on a regular basis and use my cruise control to insure I don't inadvertently speed through the zones. Once I retire, I want to teach school as a way of giving back to the community so I'm sensitive to my actions esp. around schools.
On the way back from the store, I hit the zone at my typical speed limit plus 5 mph. In my car, that's actually the indicated less 2-3 mph. I have digital video cameras front-and-back which registers my speed, the date, etc. I love having cameras on-board. There're as much of a deterrent as they are for recording stupid drivers. Like me. lol
When you enter the school zone, the signs are there, clear and obvious:
SPEED LIMIT
30 MPH
7AM - 4 PM
SCHOOL DAYS
Unfortunately, there was a portable radar unit parked in the shade off to the right side of the street and before I could say, "**** me to tears," I was flashed by it. My speed per my video and gps was 43 mph in what I thought was a 40 mph zone. Typically, photo radar units are set to trigger at +10 over the limit and most of the police seem to adhere to that. I'm not a slow old guy but I typically don't go over the limit plus 10 anytime.
So much for the 'school days' portion of the sign. I haven't received a citation in the mail but based on others who were previously flashed and got theirs in the mail, everyone is being tagged for speeding in a 30 mph area. Nothing about the school zone is mentioned in anyone's ticket.
I reached out to our local councilman and his team confirmed that they had quite a few complaints. Their response after a few days of checking with Phoenix PD:
HI Gerry, we did hear back from PD that the radar unit was deployed upon request because of the school-related summer activities at Monte Vista. We've asked them to make their signage around the area more obvious and clear so that drivers understand they are heading towards an active school zone and can adjust their speed appropriately. In your case, or anyone else who has already received a ticket from this unit, I would advise you to formally dispute the ticket.
Interestingly enough, there's a traffic light just beyond where I was flashed and it has a no-right-turn-on-red signage from 8 am to 4 pm and it states, Monday - Friday.
One of the folks who was ticketed is going to court on Monday. I'll go with her to observe the process. I've never witnessed or been in traffic court but was encouraged to go by a couple of PHX PD officers who I asked for advice.
Both of them seemed to think it'll be dismissed due to the signage stating 'school days'. One said the municipal judges aren't out to nail anyone often being conservative by ruling on the side of citizens rather than the police when there's a clear issue like this. They also said to obtain a copy of my driving record and take my video on a thumb drive.
If the person I accompany is read the riot act and fined, I'll probably do the online traffic school instead of fighting it. Of course, there are no guarantees that mine will be dismissed just because hers is but I'll be certain to get a copy of her records to take with me if I end up in court.
As for the activity in the school, there are reports that there is limited activity kind of like camp form 6:30 AM until 5:30 PM. My video shows there wasn't a child in sight and no traffic for 200 yards in front of me. I'd consider my speed to be reasonable and prudent under these circumstances but, I don't get a vote.
If I had actually zoned out and was speeding in an active school zone on a school day, I'd do the online traffic court without a second thought but in this case, it was a deliberate action on my part - 'school zone but school is closed for the summer' so 40 is ok.
Knowing what I know now, I'm be extremely mindful of the speeds in that area and I hope they change the sign. If I missed anything in my thought process or you want to call me names, go ahead. I'm old and you can't hurt my feelings. lol
I'd say bring all these facts printed out to an attorney. My county in NC is very different in that I simply bring a citation to my attorney, he doesn't ask me ANY questions about the nature of the suspected offense, and I get a letter a few weeks later stating the citation was reduced to a non-moving violation or dropped completely. I've had to do this twice in the 14 years I have been driving. But it has allowed to me to "keep my record clean" and proceed to obtain a driving position requiring no citations within a certain window.
The speed limit was 30, and you acknowledge that you saw the posted speed limit, right? And you acknowledge that you were 13 mph over the speed limit, right? It seems like that's the bottom line, to me.
But that said, you should go ahead and fight it. And don't worry, most traffic courts are very calm and collected. The judge isn't going to read you or your friend the riot act. It's generally pretty cut and dry.
60 year old driver, haven't had a ticket since 1988 absent a couple of photo radar tickets which were never served to me and thus, expired in the system and dropped out. I haven't had an at-fault accident since 2002. I don't claim to be a good driver but rather a cautious one whose years of motorcycle riding and bike riding has taught to anticipate someone's actions before they act.
A few days ago, I was on my way to the store and drove through a school zone. School is out at this location and there were only a few cars in the parking lot.
The signage in front of the school is obvious and clear and yes, I read it as I went by:
7/30 MEET THE TEACHER 5:30 - 7 PM
8/2 FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL
I've very much aware of this school. I drive this street and two other school zones on a regular basis and use my cruise control to insure I don't inadvertently speed through the zones. Once I retire, I want to teach school as a way of giving back to the community so I'm sensitive to my actions esp. around schools.
On the way back from the store, I hit the zone at my typical speed limit plus 5 mph. In my car, that's actually the indicated less 2-3 mph. I have digital video cameras front-and-back which registers my speed, the date, etc. I love having cameras on-board. There're as much of a deterrent as they are for recording stupid drivers. Like me. lol
When you enter the school zone, the signs are there, clear and obvious:
SPEED LIMIT
30 MPH
7AM - 4 PM
SCHOOL DAYS
Unfortunately, there was a portable radar unit parked in the shade off to the right side of the street and before I could say, "**** me to tears," I was flashed by it. My speed per my video and gps was 43 mph in what I thought was a 40 mph zone. Typically, photo radar units are set to trigger at +10 over the limit and most of the police seem to adhere to that. I'm not a slow old guy but I typically don't go over the limit plus 10 anytime.
So much for the 'school days' portion of the sign. I haven't received a citation in the mail but based on others who were previously flashed and got theirs in the mail, everyone is being tagged for speeding in a 30 mph area. Nothing about the school zone is mentioned in anyone's ticket.
I reached out to our local councilman and his team confirmed that they had quite a few complaints. Their response after a few days of checking with Phoenix PD:
HI Gerry, we did hear back from PD that the radar unit was deployed upon request because of the school-related summer activities at Monte Vista. We've asked them to make their signage around the area more obvious and clear so that drivers understand they are heading towards an active school zone and can adjust their speed appropriately. In your case, or anyone else who has already received a ticket from this unit, I would advise you to formally dispute the ticket.
Interestingly enough, there's a traffic light just beyond where I was flashed and it has a no-right-turn-on-red signage from 8 am to 4 pm and it states, Monday - Friday.
One of the folks who was ticketed is going to court on Monday. I'll go with her to observe the process. I've never witnessed or been in traffic court but was encouraged to go by a couple of PHX PD officers who I asked for advice.
Both of them seemed to think it'll be dismissed due to the signage stating 'school days'. One said the municipal judges aren't out to nail anyone often being conservative by ruling on the side of citizens rather than the police when there's a clear issue like this. They also said to obtain a copy of my driving record and take my video on a thumb drive.
If the person I accompany is read the riot act and fined, I'll probably do the online traffic school instead of fighting it. Of course, there are no guarantees that mine will be dismissed just because hers is but I'll be certain to get a copy of her records to take with me if I end up in court.
As for the activity in the school, there are reports that there is limited activity kind of like camp form 6:30 AM until 5:30 PM. My video shows there wasn't a child in sight and no traffic for 200 yards in front of me. I'd consider my speed to be reasonable and prudent under these circumstances but, I don't get a vote.
If I had actually zoned out and was speeding in an active school zone on a school day, I'd do the online traffic court without a second thought but in this case, it was a deliberate action on my part - 'school zone but school is closed for the summer' so 40 is ok.
Knowing what I know now, I'm be extremely mindful of the speeds in that area and I hope they change the sign. If I missed anything in my thought process or you want to call me names, go ahead. I'm old and you can't hurt my feelings. lol
I have issues myself about being unjustly accused and so sympathetic for you.
No doubt you are as conscientious as you say.
But if I were you I wouldn't go to battle on that hill. Nobody died. Move on, sir.
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