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My take on roundabouts is they work good for either low volume, medium speed or high volume, low speed. But as volume goes up everything has to work perfectly. The biggest flaw were I see things failing to work perfectly is when someone who doesn't know the road is suddenly confronted with one and hasn't set up to be in the proper lane before they get there and doesn't know which exit is the one they want out of it. That's what leads to people cutting across the flow of traffic.
It looks simple in the OP diagram because only one entrance is shown in use. In reality all entrances are in use which leads to traffic crossing the flow. We were just in one were there was a stalled truck in one lane that was causing a backup going out one side. This was propagating all through the roundabout affecting other flows that normally wouldn't cross that path. Wouldn't have taken many more cars to lock up the whole thing.
I think they work well on the smaller intersections but I'm not a fan for high volume/high speed flow.
Jeez, those Brits must be intellectual giants and awesome drivers. They've used them for 50+ years and don't have the RTA rates the US has.
Come on either there's some serious IQ issues, or, people are making mountains out of molehills. If pretty much the rest if the world with high traffic amounts can manage, I have little doubt the typical US driver has the capability to manage.
That's the point. Everything flows smoothly in a perfect world.. But.. When things are NOT perfect is where the consideration has to come in. Because nothing is ever perfect.
So, the inside lane basically has to yield to the outside lane in some situation like this. And.. While yes, it would be rare for it to happen.. Look.. People miss shifts.. You get junior out there driving a stick for the first time and he stalls it out. Someone has car problems and it chokes down as they pull out. Guy with a plugged exhaust is limping it to the shop. Someone freaks out at this fancy doohickey of a two lane roundabout. There's alot of possibility for something like this to happen, and it becomes something of a cluster if it does.
None of these situations is necessarily any easier to deal with in a traditional intersection. People will figure out how to deal with it (and hopefully cooperate with each other), roundabout or not. It's not worse just because it happens in a roundabout.
FWIW, I actually have been a similar scenario to the one you described, when the street at my desired exit was backed up to the roundabout, so I could not exit. And yes, I left an opening so that vehicles entering the roundabout wanting to go straight could get in. Unfortunately, once the backup cleared, vehicles were still entering. I had to honk my horn to and eventually "claim" my right of way to get the flow going again. Thankfully no accidents. But frankly I've seen similar behavior at traditional intersections, where people continue to make left hand turns in front of people who are stopped (but left space for them because of a backup) even once the backup has cleared and the stopped cars can resume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18
The elimination of the problem is.. Right lane, right turn only. Let the left lane do whatever they want.. it can make a right, it can go straight, it can make a left.. But the right lane MUST turn right.
If it's setup like that.. You eliminate the chance for a collision. Other than someone trying to change lanes or something, which they shouldn't be doing.
Nope. I referenced a roundabout like this earlier that has this rule (right lane - right turn only, left lane - right, straight or left). I've witnessed a number of near collisions when drivers in the right lane (incorrectly) try to go straight while left lane is trying to make a right hand turn.
Also - once people get used to roundabouts, they start getting aggressive, which is what is happening around here. They use lanes not for the intended purpose to pass other vehicles (e.g. imagine speeding down a right-turn only lane so you can pass a long line of cars and then jamming yourself back into a straight-only lane immediately before the intersection at a normal stoplight - similar concept). People routinely punch it to get into a roundabout even though they should have yielded to the traffic already circulating (just like the people make a right turn onto the road in front of you from a stop-sign/red light). So no matter what rules you have set up, whether traditional intersection or roundabout, there is no foolproof design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18
And thank you, for being the one person after 7 pages to actually read and comprehend the situation I was describing.
Nope. I referenced a roundabout like this earlier that has this rule (right lane - right turn only, left lane - right, straight or left). I've witnessed a number of near collisions when drivers in the right lane (incorrectly) try to go straight while left lane is trying to make a right hand turn.
Also - once people get used to roundabouts, they start getting aggressive, which is what is happening around here. They use lanes not for the intended purpose to pass other vehicles (e.g. imagine speeding down a right-turn only lane so you can pass a long line of cars and then jamming yourself back into a straight-only lane immediately before the intersection at a normal stoplight - similar concept). People routinely punch it to get into a roundabout even though they should have yielded to the traffic already circulating (just like the people make a right turn onto the road in front of you from a stop-sign/red light). So no matter what rules you have set up, whether traditional intersection or roundabout, there is no foolproof design.
Now that.. The aggressive driving and someone going straight from a turn only lane.. That I will fall on the side of the people here saying that people are doing it wrong and breaking the rules.
The situation I described.. Noone did anything 'wrong' particularly. Noone was speeding.. Everyone yielded to traffic properly.. Someone did 'stop' in the roundabout, but it wasn't intentional. And it funnels into a possible collision even though everyone did things right.
The people who compared this to a 4 way stop.. I get their point. But, this is a situation that wouldn't happen in a 4 way stop. You have a car stall in the middle of the intersection, you can see that when it's a 4 way stop. In a roundabout, that's not always guaranteed, especially depending on how much 'beautification' has been done to the roundabout. Traffic coming from the North might not be able to see the traffic from the South and might not see the stalled car until they're around.. And if it gets going at the wrong time.. I'd honestly think that the 'delayed' car, which would be the outside lane would be the one to yield in that situation because they were the cause of the problem. My thought would be, they stalled, so as they are getting going again, it's like they're re-entering the roundabout.
Of course.. The part I'm leaving out here is the complete and total C-F this stalled car situation is going to cause on multiple levels. That car in the right lane stalls just after it enters the intersection, you're going to have a complete and total mess of the cars entering from behind as people try to jump from the right into the left lane. THIS part is certainly no different from a 4-way stop or traffic light.
You completely forgot there are 4 entrances to the roundabout. This was already discussed in later posts.
The entrance points have nothing to do with it. Yes, there are 4, and the eastbound/westbound entrances are two lanes; the northbound/southbound ones are one lane on this particular circle. The east and west bound left lanes at the entrance point becomes the left lane within the circle, the right lane becomes the outer lane in the circle, and that lane can only go halfway around, whereas the left lane can go all the away around.
THIS part is certainly no different from a 4-way stop or traffic light.
I think we agree on this. So what is it we are arguing about?
I literally have spent more time in this thread reading about and responding to a scenario about a stalled vehicle in a roundabout than I have spent actually dealing with a stalled vehicle in a roundabout in real life.
That's the point. Everything flows smoothly in a perfect world.. But.. When things are NOT perfect is where the consideration has to come in. Because nothing is ever perfect.
So, the inside lane basically has to yield to the outside lane in some situation like this. And.. While yes, it would be rare for it to happen.. Look.. People miss shifts.. You get junior out there driving a stick for the first time and he stalls it out. Someone has car problems and it chokes down as they pull out. Guy with a plugged exhaust is limping it to the shop. Someone freaks out at this fancy doohickey of a two lane roundabout. There's alot of possibility for something like this to happen, and it becomes something of a cluster if it does.
The elimination of the problem is.. Right lane, right turn only. Let the left lane do whatever they want.. it can make a right, it can go straight, it can make a left.. But the right lane MUST turn right.
If it's setup like that.. You eliminate the chance for a collision. Other than someone trying to change lanes or something, which they shouldn't be doing.
And thank you, for being the one person after 7 pages to actually read and comprehend the situation I was describing.
We seem to do just fine with right lane right or straight and left lane straight or left. One of our roundabouts has a right turn lane just before you enter the roundabout, so the right lane is straight only and the left lane is straight or left.
Jeez, those Brits must be intellectual giants and awesome drivers. They've used them for 50+ years and don't have the RTA rates the US has.
Come on either there's some serious IQ issues, or, people are making mountains out of molehills. If pretty much the rest if the world with high traffic amounts can manage, I have little doubt the typical US driver has the capability to manage.
Well I doubt they those Brits are trying to jam through at 60. The issue with a roundabout is everyone has to cooperate and let others in and out. Just like the picture in the OP assumes the outside lane is making the first right or going straight and the inside car is going around. What's left out of the diagram is there is another set of cars from the previous entrance that are going straight. So the inside car as to cross the outside flow to get to the inside AND simultaneously someone on the inside has to let the car in. And a car turning has to cross the outside flow to go out. Works fine when the flow is slow and everyone is cooperating. Becomes "BANZAI" when the flow is fast and people aren't letting others in or across.
Well I doubt they those Brits are trying to jam through at 60. The issue with a roundabout is everyone has to cooperate and let others in and out. Just like the picture in the OP assumes the outside lane is making the first right or going straight and the inside car is going around. What's left out of the diagram is there is another set of cars from the previous entrance that are going straight. So the inside car as to cross the outside flow to get to the inside AND simultaneously someone on the inside has to let the car in. And a car turning has to cross the outside flow to go out. Works fine when the flow is slow and everyone is cooperating. Becomes "BANZAI" when the flow is fast and people aren't letting others in or across.
And if any of those behaviors happen at any other form of intersection control, be it yield/stop signs, lights, ramps or any other form is the outcome any better?
Let's take a 4 way stop sign, you saying you don't need cooperation? You don't need to cooperate with traffic lights? Of course people need to cooperate with any intersection and traffic using that intersection even a simple merge needs cooperation between the through lane and merge lane.
So I guess based on your pushback then, yes, Brits have better mental acuity and are more skilled drivers.
And if any of those behaviors happen at any other form of intersection control, be it yield/stop signs, lights, ramps or any other form is the outcome any better?
Let's take a 4 way stop sign, you saying you don't need cooperation? You don't need to cooperate with traffic lights? Of course people need to cooperate with any intersection and traffic using that intersection even a simple merge needs cooperation between the through lane and merge lane.
So I guess based on your pushback then, yes, Brits have better mental acuity and are more skilled drivers.
I think a big part of the problem is, if you want to turn left, you get in the left/inside lane, then when you get to your turn, you make a right turn across another lane of traffic, something most of us find very counter-intuitive.
Until this thread I assumed the inside lane couldn't turn anywhere, that you had to be in the outside lane to exit the roundabout (otherwise you'd be turning across another lane, which seemed dumb). I couldn't understand why anyone would ever get in the inside lane. I get it now, but it is counter to everything we have previously been taught about proper driving.
EDIT: And upon further investigation it turns out that traffic circles (which, as others have noted, are not the same thing as roundabouts), do behave in the manner I described above: you must be in the outside lane to exit a traffic circle. Which makes the situation even more confusing, as both roundabouts and traffic circles look similar to those unfamiliar with them.
Last edited by Joey2k; 08-31-2018 at 07:01 PM..
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