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>Industry shill? My, getting personal right off the bat, aren't we? Shall I now call you a hysterical ecological fashionista?
And I could call you a gullible, industry psychophant.
Oh goody! Someone who thinks with their hormones!
>Did you even read the thread that I supplied? Did you even attempt to rebut any of the points brought up?
The link doesn't work.
I double-posted the http in the link. My fault entirely. After all, you're an expert on automotive engineering, not a web designer. That double http was probably more than you could figure out...a real tough nut to crack...not like automotive engineering at all.
>Can you explain to us all how a company like GM could afford to sell a car at $25,000 when it cost them $50,000 to build them? Remember, this is the company that's currently underwater to the tune of roughly $40 billion dollars; the company that lost $15 billion just last quarter.
Which car, the EV1? It actually cost closer to $80k because it was HAND BUILT. Do you understand the concept of mass production? Can you explain to us all how a tiny startup like Aptera.com can produce a high tech 130mpg-300mpg series hybrid for $30k and an EV with 100 mile range for $26k but the great minds at GM with all their industrial might can't make an inferior product for less than $80k?
The orginal manufacturing price of the EV1 is up for debate. Some cite $80,000 per vehicle, other's claim that's too high of a cost because it includes R&D and shouldn't count in the final cost of the EV1.
I just took the cost that GM quoted for building the vehicle in full production.
The cost of building a Chevy Volt was hoped to be about $30K. Bob Lutz has been quoted as saying that the real cost is closer to $48K, that he hopes GM can cut that to $40K and that maybe government incentives might get it down to $30K. Maybe there's actually something to the $50K price tag.
Aptera? Oh that's weak! Everyone take a look at this vehicle:
http://www.leonardo-energy.org/drupal/modules/tinymce/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/imagemanager/images/apteraonsidewalk.jpg (broken link)
Now who believes that this vehicle will pass governmental crash safety standards?
Hell, just look at the wheels! One pot-hole in the road and you'll be calling for a tow to get out of it.
>NiMH batteries are PROVEN? Can you provide a source for your information? If NiMH batteries are proven, then why is GM using Lithium-ion battery technology in the Chevy Volt?
Because NiMH is not available. The patents for the EV95 large format NiMH batteries usable in vehicles is being held hostage by Cobasys to delay the EV as long as possible. They want to continue the charade that Lithium needs more research. Of course it does. It's a time proven stalling technique employed to great effect by the global climate change denialists. MORE PROOF MORE PROOF MORE PROOF but of course it's not about proof it's about delay. NiMH is PROVEN because many if not most of the original NiMH battery packs in the RAV4-EVs are still working almost like new after 10 years and hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles.
Let me get this straight...you blame General Motors for killing the EV1 even though NiMH batteries are proven...then you state that it's Cobasys's fault that the NiMH battery isn't available. So, it's GM's fault that Cobasys won't sell the batteries? Nice to see that you don't bother with logic when you make your points.
And did you happen to notice that the RAV4-EVs are now selling for about $70K? Think that there's much of a market for a vehicle with an 80 mile range, a 0-60mph in 18 seconds acceleration, for $70K?
Did you factor in that the replacement battery packs for the RAV4 run about $25K from third party suppliers?
Could you show us a picture of you driving your RAV4 EV?
>The Volt is a PR ploy? GM is bleeding to death right now, or haven't you noticed? According to you they've got the time to spend what remaining cash that they have on hand on a PR ploy? Tell me, this actually makes sense to you?
It's this kind of monumental stupidity by Lutz, Wagoner & Co. that will doom GM to oblivion.
OSSIFIED: VERB:
tr.
1. To convert (a membrane or cartilage, for example) into bone.
2. To mold into a rigidly conventional pattern.
Wonderful, Mommy bought you a dictionary...and you even learned how to use it! Good for you!
But I guess according to you GM executives do have time and money to fiddle while the company burns down. In your mind it must make sense that the board of a publicly traded company would tolerate insanity by its top managers.
>Did you notice that the Volt is a different vehicle than the EV-1? That the Volt will use a different concept for it's power train? A concept that's also being actively worked by both Toyota and Honda right now? Are Toyota and Honda also just pursuing this technology just for a PR ploy?
Serial hybrid is nothing new. GM could have just thrown a genset into an EV-1 and there's your serial hybrid. But no they can't do that. Aptera and other innovative startups can but the wizards at GM, Toyota, etal need a few more decades of R&D. Auto mfgs make huge profits in parts, maintenance & repair. A super low maintenance EV is not in their interest. And of course what's in their interest takes precedence over what's in our interest as consumers, as a nation, a people and a planet. An EV is virtually maintenance free compared to ICE. No fluids to change, no cooling system, no exhaust system, no fuel system, greatly extended brake life.
Ah, so it's not just General Motors; Toyota et al are also in on this world-wide conspiracy to make huge profits in parts, maintenance, and repairs.
And did you notice? GM is on target to deliver the Chevy Volt in November 2010. What happened to the "few more decades of R&D" that are needed?
Automobiles are under warranty for at least 36 months or 36,000 miles. Automotive Manufacturers lose money when these vehicles need to be repaired under warranty.
Auto Manufacturers don't make a huge profit in parts. Automotive Suppliers make a profit in parts, and it's not huge.
Auto Manufacturers don't make any profit in repairs. Auto Dealerships (which are independently owned) make profits in repairs. Auto Service Shops make profits in repairs and parts (via mark-up), but less than Auto Dealerships.
>If the research on fully electric cars has already been done and the technology was ready to go back in 2000, why haven't companies like Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Daimler, Volkswagen, Fiat, Peugeot or Hyundai introduced a plug-in car that's run on only NiMH batteries? Maybe it's a world-wide plot, maybe each and every one of the automobile companies in the world are deviously controlled by the oil companies.
Oil companies have controlling interests in GM, Ford; not sure about the other companies. Don't you do any research at all? Are you really that gullible that you think when billions in profits are at stake global oil and auto interests don't do everything in their power to maintain the status quo? How naive are you?
Oil companies have a controlling interest in GM? You know this ... how? Oh, it must be so...billions of dollars are at stake! And that's why Big Oil wants GM to waste it's remaining capital on a PR stunt like the Chevy Volt? Big Oil needs GM to fail?
Oil companies have a controlling interest in Ford? Now who hasn't done their research. Go read up on Clifford Longley and the creation of Ford Motor Company's Class B stock.
You didn't mention Chrylser. Guess a privately held automotive company doesn't fit into your view of the world dominated directly by oil companies.
You're not so certain about the other companies? But for your theory of a "world-wide conspiracy" to hold water, then all of the other companies must be in control of Big Oil as well.
And your proof of this conspiracy is "billions in profits are at stake".
So either I'm naive, or your a conspiracy loon.
>You will oppose and correct me? You've certainly opposed me, but you haven't corrected me, merely contradicted me. Sort of like when a two year old doesn't get his way. Maybe next time you should type your correction in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, so it will look like you're stomping your feet.
Apparently you have trouble with reading, comprehension or both. I try to make it easier for you by using CAPS FOR EMPHASIS.
And little Geos stomps his feet to get attention.
>If you respond, please try to bring in actual, supported facts, not another case of the vapors, KK?
As opposed to your fact filled tirade? Please, why don't you educate yourself on EVs so we can have an intelligent discussion. Here are some starting points:
OK, let's all take a look at Geo's web links:
The Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Loved this quote from the website's first page: "(Warning: Actually, many of our EVs are never finished. ;-)". Lovely, a website of enthusiasts who can't even finish their own EV projects.
electric_vehicles_for_sale : Electric Vehicles for sale
Funny, there's no electric vehicles for sale on a Yahoo group that calls itself "Electric Vehicles for Sale". Just some more whining about how it's all GM's fault. Or Toyota's fault. Or someone else's fault. It's just a rehash of what Geo's been dragging over to this forum.
Live oil free: it's possible right now
Let's see if I got this straight -- the guy on this website touts NiMH batteries over lithium ion batteries because (among other reasons):
Quote:
Lithium is fine for low power-draw applications, but it's volatile, can explode, has thermal runaway problems, contains toxic heavy metals, has a limited shelf life whether it's used or not, and has a much shorter lifespan ("cycle life") than needed by an Electric car.
Yet Geos slams GM and touts the AMP Saturn Sky which uses a Lithium battery? Well, allegedly uses a Lithium battery. Now the battery is a Lithium Phosphate battery, which isn't volatile, doesn't explode, doesn't have thermal runaway problems, but still contains toxic heavy metals. The website author also doubts that there's enough lithium available to mass produce the batteries required, a "fact" that's slipped by GM, Geos, and AMP.
And it would have been nice if the web site author had provided real financial figures that take into account all costs associated with his project. Instead, he brings up how much he's saved, without mentioning the cost of the RAV4-EV, the cost of the Solar Panels, the government incentives, etc.
But I guess if you're only taking "short trips" in your RAV4-EV, then other people who actually need to commute to work don't factor into the solution.
EVcast
In all fairness, this is probably the best of the four websites provided by Geos.
It does appear to offer information on electric vehicles, but mostly in pod-cast format.
It was interesting to note on the Electric Car Availability Update web page that many of the vehicles offered are either not yet for sale, are not up to contemporary standards (e.g. able to pass safety standards, able to go faster than 40 mph, able to go farther than 40 miles on a single charge), are some form of motorcycle, or cost more than $30K to purchase (assuming that you provide the base vehicle for conversion).
I never said that Electric Vehicles were impossible.
I never said that you couldn't buy one right now (the Tesla comes immediately to mind).
In fact, I've said that if you want, you can build your own EV right now or you could take your vehicle to someone who would do the conversion for you (for a price).
I've only pointed out that mass producing and profitably selling an Electric Vehicle isn't an easy slam dunk for the automotive companies.
What has Geos brought?
Links to websites touting Electric Vehicles.
Examples of electric vehicle prototypes that couldn't pass government mandated safety standards.
Links to websites offering to take your money now for vehicles that might be available in the future and which might operate somewhat close to their pre-design claims.
Oh, and conspiracy claims that the entire automobile manufacturing industry is controlled by the Big Oil Interests. Claims without support, except to note that there are billions of dollars of profit at stake.
No, Geos isn't a troll, just a conspiracy theorist spouting off his "world view" without regard to reality.
Notice how anyone who dares disagree is automatically labelled an "industry shill".
It's too bad really. Ranting loons like Geos actually do a disservice to those people actually trying to bring Electric Vehicles to market.
>No, Geos isn't a troll, just a conspiracy theorist spouting off his "world view" without regard to reality.
And you're just another gullible Poly Anna with his head up his ass whose idea of reality is whatever's in the glossy brochures..
>Notice how anyone who dares disagree is automatically labelled an "industry shill".
Notice how anyone who disagrees with with the auto industry sychophants is a "conspiracy theorist".
>It's too bad really. Ranting loons like Geos actually do a disservice to those people actually trying to bring Electric Vehicles to market.
If it wasn't for gullible suckers like you who fall for every bit of PR crap the auto industry puts out we'd have electric cars by now.
Uh huh.
I guess you told me. Quite a convincing argument. And no facts or logic required.
Next he'll be ranting about the flying cars we were all promised. Which are probably not on the market because space aliens didn't want us to have them.
The Japanese realized the US needed small cars about 35 years ago when they imported the first Corollas and Datsun 510s. Great little cars BTW. The Japanese just forgot and jumped on the big SUV/Truck bandwagon just as demand is collapsing.
I just returned from Europe. While there, I rented a little Nissan that got over 55 mpg. There are just no large cars over there and no wonder with gasoline at $10 U.S. per gallon. Many people have purchased those little Smart Cars which not only get great gas mileage but are perfect for fitting into tiny parking places--there is an appalling lack of parking in Europe, especially on the continent.
When are we as a nation going to wise up and when will the car industry begin to give us real choices in gasoline saving vehicles? Europe has had them for years.
The "Smart" car is actually pretty dumb. The Honda Fit and the Toyota Yaris get very similar gas mileage with seating for 4 and enough storage area to fit more than just a briefcase. And the "Smart" car requires premium fuel, simply unforgiveable IMO. My father-in-law was on the waiting list to buy one and when he was recently contacted about the upcoming availability, he told them to take him off the list that he'd rather by a Fit or Yaris, which are both cheaper also.
I am going to get a low milage 2002 Corolla and fit it with hard narrow tires and use cruise control to keep the highway speed below 68. Should get pretty good mileage.
I could really use an electric car because most of my (our) trips are under 25 miles or just to the park and ride at 7 miles per day. I do not own one because my $1,500 used 16 yr old Buick is more economical in $/mile at 17 miles/gallon than a new electric.
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