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I've driven manual cars every day for 6 odd years now, non of them particularly powerful, and I still enjoy, or not think about it, it's never a chore, it's part of what I like about driving.
I've driven manuals and automatics for over 30 years, on the street, on the track, on the commute, and just for fun. I stand by my statements.
And because none of your cars have been particularly powerful, they also match exactly what I said, small engines need good manuals to get the most out of them.
As I said, I prefer a good manual trans. The three cars I bought new, out of the hundred plus I've owned, had manuals by choice. I'm spending extra money and time installing a manual tranmission in a project car originally equipped with an automatic, behind an engine that was ONLY available with an automatic. Why? Because it'll be cool, as there ar no other examples of this car with a DOHC V8 or 5 speed manual transmission.
And yet, there is zero reduction in fun when I drive my modded 740iL, nor was there when I raced my V8 RX7, even though I purposely installed an automatic into it.
I've driven manuals and automatics for over 30 years, on the street, on the track, on the commute, and just for fun. I stand by my statements.
I never said you shouldn't, I'm just saying that it's a subjective statement that applies to you.
Personally I'd never have an auto in anything fast, double clutch? Yes, if it's the better choice, but not a regular auto, it takes away from the experience, in my opinion.
I never said you shouldn't, I'm just saying that it's a subjective statement that applies to you.
Personally I'd never have an auto in anything fast, double clutch? Yes, if it's the better choice, but not a regular auto, it takes away from the experience, in my opinion.
It's all personal preference anyway.
How much experience do you have with cars like, say my V8 RX7 with a B&M shift kit in the transmission, and/or modded stall speed? It's a MUCH better way to go fast. Shifts happen instantly when you want them to, up or down, just by moving the lever. No missed shifts, and no reason to lift off the throttle during the shift, so the engine makes power through the shift. And yet, when you want to simply cruise, you can put the lever in drive and it will shift automatically like normal (though a lot firmer than a typical Buick or Camry)
My problem is when people talk about personal preference, yet have limited or no experience outside a narrow range of cars, if that. It's like saying strawberry is the best ice cream flavor, while only having ever tried strawberry and plain vanilla. How do you know you don't prefer chocolate, or even French vanilla? Or at least find them just as delicious as the strawberry that's your favorite now?
It's good to have favorites. We all do. But dismissing everything else in order to justify having that favorite, now that's a different story.
How much experience do you have with cars like, say my V8 RX7 with a B&M shift kit in the transmission, and/or modded stall speed? It's a MUCH better way to go fast. Shifts happen instantly when you want them to, up or down, just by moving the lever. No missed shifts, and no reason to lift off the throttle during the shift, so the engine makes power through the shift. And yet, when you want to simply cruise, you can put the lever in drive and it will shift automatically like normal (though a lot firmer than a typical Buick or Camry)
My problem is when people talk about personal preference, yet have limited or no experience outside a narrow range of cars, if that. It's like saying strawberry is the best ice cream flavor, while only having ever tried strawberry and plain vanilla. How do you know you don't prefer chocolate, or even French vanilla? Or at least find them just as delicious as the strawberry that's your favorite now?
It's good to have favorites. We all do. But dismissing everything else in order to justify having that favorite, now that's a different story.
How many people do you think drive a modified V8 RX7 with a B&M **** kit in their life time?
That's like saying "How do you know you don't like heroin if you haven't tried it?"
If I wanted a car that acts the way you do I'd buy what I mentioned earlier, car with a double clutch transmission. They shift faster than anything else on record.
If I had a serious track car, I'd get a Dog box or a Sequential manual transmission, well proven, well tested and much used systems in pretty much any type of race and rallycar.
I like manuals because of the feel and the whole process, I like changing and selecting (manually) which gear my car is in.
I also like the safety features that comes with having a clutch, especially in day to day driving, and particularly on snow and ice, which is what I drive on 4-6 months of the year.
I'm not a complete manual nazi, I do think autos fit certain vehicles, but think bigger saloons, BMW 5, 7 and stuff like the X5/6 etc. I wouldn't kill myself if I have to get a 3 series with it either, but I much prefer the manual.
And like I said, I'd consider a DSG, but generally I prefer a manual and when I can afford something more sporty, it will definitely have a manual (or DSG).
Seriously Merc, the guy is not asking about heavily modded racing cars. He's asking about a normal, everyday street car for normal, everyday street use. Do you have any thoughts on that subject?
i still think it becomes second nature and isn't a PITA unless you have leg pain, knee pain, or shoulder pain. perhaps some mobility issues
and sure, if you break your left leg or hurt your right elbow or other such things, it will be a PITA. but otherwise changing gears for those who want or have to isn't really a physical problem. and thats the only kind of problem i can see. even if exhausted i never thought about it. i never thought
damn, gotta shift those gears again!
i could do it asleep. i think one poster is right in saying don't do it for driving excitement, but wrong for suggesting outside of having fun there is no reason to do it. sometimes its not fun, but if driving an underpowered car or a high performance one, shifting your own gears can give you something NO strictly automatic can. and that is complete and total control over how to use your engine. and you don't even think about it
i prefer auto's these days because i don't drive as aggressively as i once did. whether i needed a downshift or wanted to hold second casually going up a hill, i could. and the electronics didn't have to figure it out first. i thought it, and did it. thats better then any computer listening to your foot through the drive by wire
but now i don't care. and while the car might bog in 4th driving in traffic, i just drive around in 3rd when need be. tap the gear selector to the right, and thats that
The one thing I have never seen with a "conventional" automatic is a good, clean smooth downshift. Now I realize some Lexus and similar have automatic rev matching but I am talking about a conventional autobox.
The other thing I don't particularly like on modern autoboxes is the large number of gears and unanticipated downshifts when passing. Maybe it's just my personality - if I want some help, dammit, I'll ASK for it. An old school 3-speed automatic isn't like this, you only get passing gear if you really step on it, and you'll only shift to first if you floor or nearly floor the gas at quite low speeds.
But with my 'roc, I can match revs and shift down from 5th to 4th or even 3rd, set up the pass, then get on the gas when I'm ready to go for it.
The other thing is being able to shift up a little short and open the throttle more when accelerating more or less normally, giving the same performance for less gas burnt compared to the autobox which will delay upshifting with wider throttle opening.
The other thing I don't particularly like on modern autoboxes is the large number of gears and unanticipated downshifts when passing. Maybe it's just my personality - if I want some help, dammit, I'll ASK for it. An old school 3-speed automatic isn't like this, you only get passing gear if you really step on it, and you'll only shift to first if you floor or nearly floor the gas at quite low speeds.
Well, with the automatics in my cars, I don't have to wait for the transmission to downshift... many times I will manually downshift it. I prefer to do that rather than use wide open throttle and have it downshift automatically. Automatically downshifting is there for a reason... for the non-car enthusiasts who would drive up a long, steep hill in 3rd gear (with a 3-speed automatic). They don't realize that the car will stay in 2nd because it's easier on the engine, less of a load.
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The other thing is being able to shift up a little short and open the throttle more when accelerating more or less normally, giving the same performance for less gas burnt compared to the autobox which will delay upshifting with wider throttle opening.
If you want a car with an automatic to upshift a little short, you can just ease off the throttle slightly for a second or two.
When I manually shift my cars with automatics, I won't shift into 3rd gear until the car is going about 40 or 45 mph, but sometimes I will shift it into 3rd at a lower speed like 25 or 30 mph by easing off the throttle. Then I will open the throttle more.
The one thing I have never seen with a "conventional" automatic is a good, clean smooth downshift. Now I realize some Lexus and similar have automatic rev matching but I am talking about a conventional autobox.
Then you haven't driven many. Even my 12 year old BMW has good clean downshifts. And that V8 RX7 (or any of my musclecars with a $50 shift kit) had excellent upshifts and downshifts, instantly, when you wanted them.
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The other thing I don't particularly like on modern autoboxes is the large number of gears and unanticipated downshifts when passing.
Well, two separate things going on here.
One is the trend to more gear ratios period, in manuals AND automatics. We used to make do with 3 and 4 speed manuals, then came 5 speeds and then 6 speeds. You could have wide ratio gearboxes and close ratio gearboxes. On, say, a wide ratio 5 speed, 5th gear was an overdrive on top of 4 regular gear ratios, wheras a close ratio 5 speed, 5th was often a 1:1 ratio just like a 4 speed, but there were more gear ratios inbetween.
This is necessary when you have an engine with a fairly narrow powerband OR (in an economy car) a fairly narrow rpm range where the engine is most efficient and you want to keep it there as you accellerate.
With the 6 speed, sometimes you get a close ratio 5 speed with an overdrive, and sometimes you get a wide ratio where 5th and 6th are BOTH overdrive gear ratios.
The other issue is one of programming. With a lot of gear ratios, the idea is to keep the engine working in a very narrow rpm range, where it's easier to control fuel useage and emissions production. so the programming is very much designed to shift a lot to keep the engine in that rpm band. Yeah, that can be very annoying, though on some transmissions, that can be changed, either with a switch that changes the shifting algorithms, or by modifying the programming with an aftermarket solution. This is no different than any engine or suspension mod you could do, so if you are inclined to put in a chip kit/intake/exhaust on your engine to improve performance/efficiency, then you can do the same with your transmission.
On older, non-computer controlled automatics, it's even easier/cheaper to modify to perform better.
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Maybe it's just my personality - if I want some help, dammit, I'll ASK for it.
And yet you have no problem allowing the car to automatically do a lot of the OTHER tasks that were once manual, from spark advance to the choke, to braking and traction control (to me, traction control was your right foot... )
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An old school 3-speed automatic isn't like this, you only get passing gear if you really step on it, and you'll only shift to first if you floor or nearly floor the gas at quite low speeds.
And if you put in a shift kit in one (or a 4 speed unit like the AOD or 200R4) you can shift either automatically OR manually.
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But with my 'roc, I can match revs and shift down from 5th to 4th or even 3rd, set up the pass, then get on the gas when I'm ready to go for it.
Actually it's not that you CAN match revs, but that you HAVE to. Hypoid gearboxes require it (which is why they have synchros) in order to move from gear to gear (and with synchros, you dont really have to, and on any modern trans, you aren't going to hurt the gearbox by letting the synchros do the work). Planetary gearsets have all that built in, and the revs don't have to be matched at all to work. That's why they can make power THROUGH the shift (and why they are so good in turbo cars as the turbos can build boost during the shift so you don't loose pwer going into the next gear)
In the scenario you describe, in my BMW or that old RX7, I decide that I want to go for it, I move the lever to that gear and punch it. I don't have to match revs, I just change the gear to what I want and accelerate. I have full control as it does exactly what I want when I want it, without massaging it or doing extra song and dance to get it do do what I want.
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The other thing is being able to shift up a little short and open the throttle more when accelerating more or less normally, giving the same performance for less gas burnt compared to the autobox which will delay upshifting with wider throttle opening.
On some, yes. On others, no. You can't make blanket statements.
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