Unruly passengers-Why are"no-fly" lists not being shared?
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Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,022,681 times
Reputation: 46172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
If you banned every single passenger for every single minor infraction, ...
...
The title of the thread is unruly passengers causing altercation.
I've flown thousands of flights (4 so far the week, 4 more to go)... I have witnessed one unruly passenger in the past 50 yrs of flying, An Air Marshall took that passenger down.
I've never witnessed a FA responding inappropriately. They encounter thousands of fliers everyday, and plenty of the customers are not easy to deal with.
If you were to disrupt a commercial flight to the point of creating a safety risk.... I vote you permanently off all flights, all carriers.
There could be a mandatory counseling, classes and fee to regain the privilege to fly, but I would keep offenders on the 'monitor list' for life. 2 strikes, you're out.
The title of the thread is unruly passengers causing altercation.
I've flown thousands of flights (4 so far the week, 4 more to go)... I have witnessed one unruly passenger in the past 50 yrs of flying, An Air Marshall took that passenger down.
I've never witnessed a FA responding inappropriately. They encounter thousands of fliers everyday, and plenty of the customers are not easy to deal with.
If you were to disrupt a commercial flight to the point of creating a safety risk.... I vote you permanently off all flights, all carriers.
There could be a mandatory counseling, classes and fee to regain the privilege to fly, but I would keep offenders on the 'monitor list' for life. 2 strikes, you're out.
JMHO, your feelings are certainly different.
That's fine, I'm used to that
The post I was replying to referred to someone who drank and ate the entire flight without their mask on.
That disrupts no one, except when an overzealous FA overreacts to that customer. And yes, customers are not easy to deal with. That goes for every industry, it's not exclusive to airlines. And some FAs I've seen who think safety and customer service are mutually exclusive need to get over themselves. Plenty of Asian airlines deliver excellent customer service on board while safely operating the flight.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,022,681 times
Reputation: 46172
Rules, are rules... Don't like them? Don't attend the event / flight.
Asian FAs don't have to deal with "mask wars".
There are lots of rules in Asia. Singapore has been my second home since 1980s. So masks (and fines, / arrests / caning for not following rules) are pretty common events. If I don't want to follow the rules.... I make it a point to not offend / put others at risk or being uncomfortable. Mask wearing is very trivial, and also very effective at capturing aerosal spew that some people broadcast very aggressively.
I wish mask rules had outlived their usefulness. Its not entirely the case.
You need to think of the vaccine as something like a "very good raincoat". The problem is that in a major rainstorm even someone who is wearing a raincoat will get wet.
When you are in a confined area like an airplane, a building with a huge number of people, or public transportation masks may still serve a purpose among the fully vaccinated. There are breakthrough cases and the masks are one additional layer of protection.
I personally would love to do away with masks. Perhaps, if 90% of the population were vaccinated we could do exactly that even in crowded and confined areas. However, the fully vaccinated rate in the USA is still only about 58.5%.
Covid is an extraordinarily infectious disease.
We can never be 100% safe. We need to find a way to relax a lot of the rules. Going out of the home should not be an ordeal. This post expresses my views:
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
The vast majority of rules surrounding aviation have far outlived their usefulness. Water bottles? Are you kidding me?
Masks are ultimately not very effective, or we would have had rapid reopening in May 2020.
We can never be 100% safe. We need to find a way to relax a lot of the rules. Going out of the home should not be an ordeal. This post expresses my views:
Masks are ultimately not very effective, or we would have had rapid reopening in May 2020.
Exactly. Texas and Florida said "Screw it" and reopened fairly quickly anyway, and frankly we have a very healthy and vibrant local economy here. Very few empty storefronts and my local happy hour spot is booming. I think people came to their senses after 6 weeks and decided we need an economy to be able to afford to fight off a virus. Yes, people died, but the rest of us have to resume living.
People have collectively lost their minds.
And FTR: TSA is a complete farce. One that costs us taxpayers $8 billion every year and orders of magnitude more than that in lost productivity and discarded merchandise. How many aircraft have they saved from going down? Zero.
Last edited by albert648; 11-11-2021 at 08:30 PM..
Consider the FA has to deal with 1,000+ 'customers' / day and may not be aware of your particular "Elite ROYAL status" as you are boarding.
It was just a flipant comment, not meant to personally degrade you, but possibly gets proven hundreds / times / day as the best and most effective results with the other 999+ passenger the FA has to deal with daily.
Tho I am elite on several carriers, I never bring that to the attention (or concern) of a FA doing their job in the most efficient manner to serve the 999+ 'other' passengers + keep their boss and managers happy. They are not there to serve ME, I'm quite capable of surviving without bothering them on 40 min to 18 hr flights.
I'm sure some days are really bad days for FA's. This might be one/ Help them through it without hen pecking a minor shortfall or comment.
Flying is a privilege which I do no take for granted.
I really don't enjoy the alternatives of walking or going via train or bus.
I wasnt saying they should treat me better than others, I am saying that he is dealing with customers who pay a lot of money and could be regular customers that use their services regularly. He shouldnt be speaking like that to anyone. He isnt a clerk at a convenience store watching someone put a butterfinger in their pocket.
I am not sure what that means to say flying is a privelege. Flying is a business. A private business offers it for a price and I pay that price. I expect to be treated like a valued customer. It isnt a privelege, its a business like any other. Is everything that we do and pay for a privelege now?
Anyway, here is the response from customer care:
"Hi RoyaleWithCheese,
First and foremost let me apologize for the behavior of the Flight Attendant on your flight from Newark to San Francisco in October.
Amenity kits,which include earphones, may differ from business class to coach but you are correct in that the Flight Attendants behavior was unacceptable. Under no circumstances would his behavior be deemed appropriate. Please accept my apology for the Flight Attendants unprofessional actions. I will share your concerns with our management team. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
We hope you'll give us the opportunity to provide you with a more positive experience in the future. Thank you for being a MileagePlus member.
Consider the FA has to deal with 1,000+ 'customers' / day and may not be aware of your particular "Elite ROYAL status" as you are boarding.
The interesting part is that jet bridge to seat is typically the one point where a FA does not know who you are. The Legacy 3 carriers have made big investments in their IT systems and the boarding pass has all kinds of tags in it about elite status, Global Entry/PreCheck and such encoded into it and once you're in your assigned seat, the FAs now all have PDAs/Smartphones containing info linking the seat assignment to frequent flyer profiles and even your travel history("Ms. Mouse, I'm sorry about the service recovery issues surrounding your recent diversion to Hunstville. That was not up to Delta standards.") Some of those systems will reportedly even list a 'score' for how profitable a passenger is for the airline.
It actually does make for better and more personalized customer service so I'm okay with that kind of thing.
While these airlines can generally do what they want in this regard, I'd caution against a standard, industry-wide shared no-fly list except for the most egregious of cases as I have concerns of fundamental fairness and consistency. I'd like to see a good plan formulated for what the evidentiary standard would be (is the word of a flight attendant going to be good enough or will both sides be allowed to present evidence and for an appeals process with the airlines?). While the documented assault of a flight crew member might seem like an easy case (and, even then, there would be the question of whether something is justified ultimately, which is why I pointed out the evidentiary process and review process), I'd fear that many other cases that aren't so easy would get caught up under such a list where things aren't necessarily so black and white.
Exactly. Texas and Florida said "Screw it" and reopened fairly quickly anyway, and frankly we have a very healthy and vibrant local economy here. Very few empty storefronts and my local happy hour spot is booming. I think people came to their senses after 6 weeks and decided we need an economy to be able to afford to fight off a virus. Yes, people died, but the rest of us have to resume living.
People have collectively lost their minds.
In this connection, this article, With Premonition, Michael Lewis Gets It Backwards By Jeffrey A. Tucker(link), in my view, has a lot of merit. Search in this article for "high-school science fair" and the word "Glass" (the name of the science-fair experimenters). It makes fascinating reading.
Jeffrey Tucker had written me back from an email I wrote with a review of The Premonition: A Pandemic Story by Michael Lewis which I posted on this site. The book discussed in detail the original science "experiment" in an eighth grade science fair project in 2003. Michael Lewis seems all in favor of this experiment. Michael Lewis is implicitly saying that we should have performed non-pharmaceutical interventions ("NPIs"). When I say "implicitly" he faults the CDC for not utilizing NPIs in threatened pandemics as early as swine flu (1976) on including the 2003 SARS and 2009 H1N1. NPIs are essentially lockdowns; closures of schools, businesses, places of assembly, mandating social distancing and restricting travel, with the goal of somehow eliminating a virus. The problem is obvious; society cannot function for lengthy periods or frequently in lockdown. Nowhere was the educational or social cost of the remedy discussed. The book's focus was purely on epidemiology.
The level of destruction of freedom, educational values and civil society was immense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albert648
And FTR: TSA is a complete farce. One that costs us taxpayers $8 billion every year and orders of magnitude more than that in lost productivity and discarded merchandise. How many aircraft have they saved from going down? Zero.
Amen to that! Security theater has made getting on an airplane not only theater but the theater of the absurd. People are forced to remove their shoes because one sick individual stuffed explosives into them. One person! It would be far better to do some profiling than to treat everyone like criminals.
In the area of security, the contrast between the way we handled terror back in the day and now is telling. During the late 1960's Richard Nixon's "special operatives" later known as the Plumbers, along with the FBI, destroyed the Weather Underground and Black Panthers from inside. Some of their tactics were unsavory. There were wiretaps, internal infiltration and probably some violence. But organizations that were indisputably targeting police offers, and general social order were destroyed. In Israel, to this day, terror leaders are targeted and killed.
In the U.S. our approach is security theater. We make people go through tangled lines at airports and lobby entrances to buildings, in the name of "security. This is political correctness, plain and simple. We are strangling critical parts of our cities rather than smashing the terrorists. We should have been disrupting cells, the way we infiltrated and disrupted Puerto Rican nationalist groups in the 1980's, Croatian separatist in the early 1990's and more recently radical Islamic cells. There is no "right" to organize a violent cell. Profile if necessary; the law abiding in profiled groups will feel safe, not "demeaned."
In short, productivity loss and public inconvenience should be minimized, not maximized for theatrical purposes.
While these airlines can generally do what they want in this regard, I'd caution against a standard, industry-wide shared no-fly list except for the most egregious of cases as I have concerns of fundamental fairness and consistency. I'd like to see a good plan formulated for what the evidentiary standard would be (is the word of a flight attendant going to be good enough or will both sides be allowed to present evidence and for an appeals process with the airlines?). While the documented assault of a flight crew member might seem like an easy case (and, even then, there would be the question of whether something is justified ultimately, which is why I pointed out the evidentiary process and review process), I'd fear that many other cases that aren't so easy would get caught up under such a list where things aren't necessarily so black and white.
If someone is convicted with the felony of interfering with a flight crew penalty up to 20 years. If they use a dangerous weapon can get life in prison. No need for no fly lists the only way they will be flying again is in a orange Jumpsuit legs and arms shackled.
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