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I was watching MLB network's Classic World Series for 1960... Pirates v Yankees. While watching, Roy Face was of course noted as being the 'closer' for the Pirates in that series.
I then remembered his 18-1 season and his use of the forkball as well as the many seasons in the late 50s and early 60s when he was the man. The Lil' General. I wasn't sure if he was the first to use the forkball so I did a quick search and found this on WikiPedia:
So, given his record and the fact that he popularized a pitch that has become a factor in the game today.... should he be in the Hall of Fame?
I'm biased... I'm from Pittsburgh and remember ElRoy fondly. He was the favorite player of many a kid back then. Plus, he was approachable and just generally a good guy.
But, anyone not from Pittsburgh remember him? Anyone else think that maybe he should be in the Hall?
Sure, I remember Roy Face. I think the other Pirate pitching ace was Vern Law. I grew up in Chicago, but still recall many names from other teams. Some other Pirates; Dick Groat, Vada Pinson, Hal Smith (hit the game tying 3 run homer to set up the game winning homer for Mazeroski). I think the manager was Danny Murtaugh.
Frank Thomas, the Pirate outfielder, finished up his career with the Cubs. On his way home after the game at Wrigley Field he always stopped for kids wanting autographs.
Sure, I remember Roy Face. I think the other Pirate pitching ace was Vern Law. I grew up in Chicago, but still recall many names from other teams. Some other Pirates; Dick Groat, Vada Pinson, Hal Smith (hit the game tying 3 run homer to set up the game winning homer for Mazeroski). I think the manager was Danny Murtaugh.
You're exactly right except for Vada Pinson... I don't think he ever played for the Pirates. He was great... extremely fast... his best years being with the Reds.
But the rest of what you say... yep... you're correct. I'd say Vern Law was the ace with Bob Friend a close second. They also had Vineger Bend Mizell and Harvey Haddix in the starting rotation.
And it's nice to see someone who remembers Hal Smith's home run. It was huge... but didn't win the game. Murtaugh managed in 60 and came back to manage the 71 World Series championship.
Sure, I remember Roy Face. I think the other Pirate pitching ace was Vern Law. I grew up in Chicago, but still recall many names from other teams. Some other Pirates; Dick Groat, Vada Pinson, Hal Smith (hit the game tying 3 run homer to set up the game winning homer for Mazeroski). I think the manager was Danny Murtaugh.
Frank Thomas, the Pirate outfielder, finished up his career with the Cubs. On his way home after the game at Wrigley Field he always stopped for kids wanting autographs.
By the way, my parents were from Chicago so the Cubs (my Mom) and the White Sox (my Dad) were definitely a part of our household. I still remember rooting for the Sox against LA in 59.
Frank Thomas was a good guy... I remember when we traded him, I was crushed. But... looking back, it was a good trade for the Pirates. I mean... Hoak, Haddix and Burgess? Not bad...
You're exactly right except for Vada Pinson... I don't think he ever played for the Pirates. He was great... extremely fast... his best years being with the Reds.
But the rest of what you say... yep... you're correct. I'd say Vern Law was the ace with Bob Friend a close second. They also had Vineger Bend Mizell and Harvey Haddix in the starting rotation.
And it's nice to see someone who remembers Hal Smith's home run. It was huge... but didn't win the game. Murtaugh managed in 60 and came back to manage the 71 World Series championship.
But what do you think... ElRoy in the Hall?
Thanks for all the names and the correction. I think that Haddix (the Kitten) pitched a 12 inning no hitter (something like that), but lost in a game with the Milwaukee Braves. My memory about that is vague, but it was some sort of unusual game.
I really couldn't evaluate enough about Face to know if he could be in the Hall Of Fame.
Thanks for all the names and the correction. I think that Haddix (the Kitten) pitched a 12 inning no hitter (something like that), but lost in a game with the Milwaukee Braves. My memory about that is vague, but it was some sort of unusual game.
I really couldn't evaluate enough about Face to know if he could be in the Hall Of Fame.
You're right about Haddix... the Kitten. He pitched 12 perfect innings against the Braves who at the time were simply awesome. Eddie Matthews, Hank Aaron, Joe Adcock.... great team. MLB network had a show with a piece on that game...
Haddix was a pitching coach for the Pirates and died from emphysema. He was a heavy smoker and story has it that Dick Groat was lighting a cigarette for Harvey after every inning so as not to break his luck. No matter, he also was good guy (signed autographs to my friends) and will always be remembered for that performance.
Thanks for the memories... As for Face... ok, let's see if anyone else responds.
P.S. Was a big fan of Ken Hubbs... saw him play. A huge tragedy and frankly, one player I don't think many outside of Chicago remember.
I don't think he ever got more than 20% of the HOF votes, so I guess many writers thought he did not deserve to be in the Hall. The general thinking is that a player must be head and shoulders above the crowd to qualify for induction. 18-1 as a reliever is a really interesting stat, but one that can not usually be built on. He was, no doubt, a good pitcher and a perfect gentleman, but that and a couple of bucks will buy you a cup of coffee in Cooperstown.
Ken Hubbs' life was cut short in a plane crash when he was 22. He was a slick fielding 2nd baseman and most likely would have improved on his batting average, much like Ozzie Smith who also couldn't handle major league pitching in his early years. But who really knows? At 6'2" he may have developed some power too. His death was certainly a tragedy.
And I'd put Vada Pinson (who never played for Pittsburgh) a little ahead of Elroy for HOF voting if it was up to me. Interesting topic, Bagger!
I don't think he ever got more than 20% of the HOF votes, so I guess many writers thought he did not deserve to be in the Hall. The general thinking is that a player must be head and shoulders above the crowd to qualify for induction. 18-1 as a reliever is a really interesting stat, but one that can not usually be built on. He was, no doubt, a good pitcher and a perfect gentleman, but that and a couple of bucks will buy you a cup of coffee in Cooperstown.
Ken Hubbs' life was cut short in a plane crash when he was 22. He was a slick fielding 2nd baseman and most likely would have improved on his batting average, much like Ozzie Smith who also couldn't handle major league pitching in his early years. But who really knows? At 6'2" he may have developed some power too. His death was certainly a tragedy.
And I'd put Vada Pinson (who never played for Pittsburgh) a little ahead of Elroy for HOF voting if it was up to me. Interesting topic, Bagger!
Thanks for the response and comment.
First, I'd like to say I'm very familiar with the history of Ken Hobbs. He was one of my heroes back in the day. I just don't think he gets the credit he deserves.
Having said that, I think the same way for ElRoy. He was revolutionary I think with the forkball. Just would like to see him get credit for his career and innovation.
And yeah, I don't know if the numbers add up.... but I got to tell you, he's a Hall of Famer in my mind.
And I'd put Vada Pinson (who never played for Pittsburgh) a little ahead of Elroy for HOF voting if it was up to me.
I'd class Pinson among the "Didn't seal the deal" group of Hall candidates. If you look at Vada's career, he started young and six of his first seven seasons were All Star worthy. After that, beginning at age 27, he was an ordinary player the rest of his career. He didn't compile career numbers which are in line with HoF induction.
There have been plenty of players who after their first seven or eight seasons, appeared to be on HoF tracks, but then they stopped producing at a star level. Will Clark, Dwight Gooden, Brett Saberhagen, Dave Parker, Rueben Sierra, Vida Blue, Chuck Knoblauch, Fred Lynn...all would have been projected as probable HoFers before they turned 30, but they all flamed out. These are Pinson's peers and none of them merit HoF induction.
I forget what the specific language is, but the criteria laid out for the Hall does state that induction is not intended for some short term heroics. This was intended to keep out the fluke candidates like Johnny Vandemeer or Norm Cash.....and Roger Maris.
Face had a decent career and was a valuable pitcher, but had it not been for the weird 18-1 season in 1959, he would not be any better remembered than plenty of other pitchers who had careers which were as good or better. I think that the idea behind the Hall's criteria was that the doors were not to be opened for people with fluke credentials like Face.
I'd class Pinson among the "Didn't seal the deal" group of Hall candidates. If you look at Vada's career, he started young and six of his first seven seasons were All Star worthy. After that, beginning at age 27, he was an ordinary player the rest of his career. He didn't compile career numbers which are in line with HoF induction.
There have been plenty of players who after their first seven or eight seasons, appeared to be on HoF tracks, but then they stopped producing at a star level. Will Clark, Dwight Gooden, Brett Saberhagen, Dave Parker, Rueben Sierra, Vida Blue, Chuck Knoblauch, Fred Lynn...all would have been projected as probable HoFers before they turned 30, but they all flamed out. These are Pinson's peers and none of them merit HoF induction.
I forget what the specific language is, but the criteria laid out for the Hall does state that induction is not intended for some short term heroics. This was intended to keep out the fluke candidates like Johnny Vandemeer or Norm Cash.....and Roger Maris.
Face had a decent career and was a valuable pitcher, but had it not been for the weird 18-1 season in 1959, he would not be any better remembered than plenty of other pitchers who had careers which were as good or better. I think that the idea behind the Hall's criteria was that the doors were not to be opened for people with fluke credentials like Face.
Good list of those who did not quite merit HoF.... being a Pirates fan, Parker as good as he was doesn't deserve it.
As for Face... wasn't he responsible for bringing back the forkball which was then used by others to make the HoF? So I guess I'm not just looking at numbers, or the fact he is a good guy, it's also that he re-introduced a pitch that has been used by others to make the Hall.
Oh well, I doubt he'll ever make it but I still think he was a very special pitcher.
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