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Then I and those Hawaiians who discriminate against me right up front based on my race will have a "difficult time" TOGETHER...
And again, I said nothing about not observing "common courtesy" (even though it's not common anymore) so don't put words in my mouth. As for ignorance, it's ignorant to judge an individual based on race...or if they are a transplant instead of a Kama`aina.
I was also referring to politics, the principles America was founded upon and in which all Americans should share, regardless of their state of residence. ALL Americans should have the same basic civil rights & protections regardless of their state. I see some of that glaringly absent in HI, and I guess it's been that way since statehood (51 years now). I don't know if it's because HI has just always been generally a liberal/Democrat state, or if it's because of the large Aisian population and how THEY maybe see things differently than the rest of the country. I have asked about that, but no one has any answers. Whatever, that shouldn't be, hence my reference to "joining the Union."
If HI wants to be that dfferent from the 49 other states, and finds mainlanders so terrible/distasteful (yet their money is certainly welcomed, isn't it), it should secede from the Union (yes, it's legal: The Civil War only [and illegally] "solved" the issue of secession by force, not by law in the courts). But until then it needs to remember it's a state, not a foreign country...or something special like an American Indian reservation (such as found here on the mainland) which are sovereign entities (yet only to some degree, not completely).
But that's more thread drift as well as another topic...
Last edited by cloudcroft; 10-15-2010 at 06:41 PM..
Then I and those Hawaiians who discriminate against me right up front based on my race will have a hard time TOGETHER...
And again, I said nothing about not observing "common courtesy" (even though it's not common anymore) so don't put words in my mouth. As for ignorance, it's ignorant to judge an individual based on race...or if they are a transplant instead of a Kama`aina.
I was also referring to politics, the principles America was founded upon and in which all Americans should share, regardless of their state of residence. ALL Americans should have the same rights & protections regardless of their state. I see some of that glaringly absent in HI, and I guess ot's been that way since statehood (51 years now). I don't know if it's because HI is just always been generally a liberal state, or if it's because of the large Aisian population and how THEY maybe see things different than the rest of the country. I have asked about that, but no one has any answers. Whatever, that shouldn't be, hence my reference to "joining the Union."
If HI wants to be that dfferent from the 49 other states, and finds mainlanders so terible/distasteful (yet their money is certainly welcomed, isn't it), it should secede from the Union (yes, it's legal). But until then it needs to remember it's a state, not a foreign country...or something special like an American Indian reservation (here on the mainland) which are sovereign entities (yet only to some degree, not completely).
But that's another topic...
The quote, in BOLD, says it all. Do you realize what the Akaka Bill will do to this state? It will create the largest sovereign group of people in the US.
Hawaii IS different - and part of that is due to how Hawaii became a territory to begin with. I used to scoff at this, but after lots of reading and trying to understand the issues, realize that Hawaii was stolen from the Hawaiians. It is no wonder that they have serious resentment issues.
As a mainland transplant, I try to keep myself aware of these issues and act in a proper, respectful manner.
"...act in a proper, respectful manner." So should they. Why be in denial about that?
The situation the Kanaka Maoli found themselves in (when they weren't killing each other and stealing other Kanaka Maoli lands that is) when whites came to the island and native Hawaiians faced the biggest "tribe" of all -- white people -- is the very same situation American Indians (when THEY weren't killing each other and stealing other tribes' lands that is) were in when whites hit the beaches in VA and MA, too. SOMEONE was going to discover and take control of America and HI, sooner or later. It just happened to be whites from Europe instead of someone else, such as Chinese, Japanese or African settlers. So why, as a white person, must I take on some mantle of perceived guilt for what went on WAY before I was even born? I sure won't.
As for the Akaka bill, it's just a bill, not law, and it's been CRAWLING along for how many years now? And read the bill: Mainland American Indian reservations will still have more rights than native Hawaiians will (again, IF Akaka passes). AND, HI is still a STATE, and will STILL be a STATE if Akaka passes and SOME lands do "go native."
The point is, HI is still a state presently, and that's what I'm talking about -- presently. ALL the Hawaiian islands/lands will not revert back to pre-statehood status, even if SOME islands NOW (like Nihau) are already effectively off limits (and unfriendly) to the terrible lowlife mainlander "invaders."
Get the Big Picture: I'm talking about the whole of Hawaii as a STATE, and what being a state of the Union means...not any exceptions, i.e., tiny portions of it "going indigenous" (like Nihau pretty much is already) or, that MAY go native down the road if Akaka passes -- and passes in its entirety or at all since there's plenty of opposition to it. I don't expect to be visiting any Hawaiian "special (unwelcoming, no Aloha Spirit) lands" anyway, just the STATE of Hawaii...so to me, the exceptions ("special lands") are irrelevant.
Still, Akaka won't change the fact that HI is a STATE. Consequently, it should be open to ALL Americans who wish to live there or just visit, regardless of their race or "newcomer" status...and with no subserviant self-deprecating role-playing required. For anyone...locals or transplants alike.
Last edited by cloudcroft; 10-15-2010 at 08:27 PM..
"...act in a proper, respectful manner." So should they. Why be in denial about that?
The situation the Kanaka Maoli found themselves in (when they weren't killing each other and stealing other Kanaka Maoli lands that is) when whites came to the island and native Hawaiians faced the biggest "tribe" of all -- white people -- is the very same situation American Indians (when THEY weren't killing each other and stealing other tribes' lands that is) were in when whites hit the beaches in VA and MA, too. SOMEONE was going to discover and take control of America and HI, sooner or later. It just happened to be whites from Europe instead of someone else, such as Chinese, Japanese or African settlers. So why, as a white person, must I take on some mantle of perceived guilt for what went on WAY before I was even born? I sure won't.
As for the Akaka bill, it's just a bill, not law, and it's been CRAWLING along for how many years now? And read the bill: Mainland American Indian reservations will still have more rights than native Hawaiians will (again, IF Akaka passes). AND, HI is still a STATE, and will STILL be a STATE if Akaka passes and SOME lands do "go native."
The point is, HI is still a state presently, and that's what I'm talking about -- presently. ALL the Hawaiian islands/lands will not revert back to pre-statehood status, even if SOME islands NOW (like Nihau) are already effectively off limits (and unfriendly) to the terrible lowlife mainlander "invaders."
Get the Big Picture: I'm talking about the whole of Hawaii as a STATE, and what being a state of the Union means...not any exceptions, i.e., tiny portions of it "going indigenous" (like Nihau pretty much is already) or, that MAY go native down the road if Akaka passes -- and passes in its entirety or at all since there's plenty of opposition to it. I don't expect to be visiting any Hawaiian "special (unwelcoming, no Aloha Spirit) lands" anyway, just the STATE of Hawaii...so to me, the exceptions ("special lands") are irrelevant.
Still, Akaka won't change the fact that HI is a STATE. Consequently, it should be open to ALL Americans who wish to live there or just visit, regardless of their race or "newcomer" status...and with no subserviant self-deprecating role-playing required. For anyone...locals or transplants alike.
So Europeans never killed each other and took over each others lands?
European's did not "discover" Hawaii, nor did they "discover" North America. Hawaii was discovered by the Polynesians - what we now call Hawaiians. North America was not "discovered" by Europeans either.
Since my wife and kids are part Cherokee Nation (not a tribe, a NATION) I think I understand a little more about that than you?
You say you "don't expect to be visiting any Hawaiian "special (unwelcoming, no Aloha Spirit) lands" but do you realize that a large percent of the lands are owned by trusts that trace back to former kings/queens of the islands? A large percent of the land is leased and not "owned" by the people who have houses, condos, businesses, farms, etc. on it. Many of the parks and beach areas are still owned by these Hawaiian trusts. They allow free access because it is the right thing to do.
Yes, Hawaii is a state - but you should realize the history and practices of its' people. Don't try to change it just because you say it is a state.
You have a lot of learning to do if you want to live in Hawaii.
"...but you should realize the history and practices of its' people." And Hawaiians need to realize they're Americans, not foreigners.
Once again, misinterpretation of what I am saying (and what I know or don't know) persists. [sigh]
I didn't say Europeans did not do the same things, they sure did, since aparently it's hard-wired human nature shared by all. I just get tired of indigeneous people everywhere whining about "bad white people" doing "bad things" to THEM when it was perfectly acceptable for them to do the very same to each other all along BEFORE white people appeared (usually white, but there here WERE other races out "discovering" you know, such as the Arabs)...and most indigeneous peoples were no more caring/concerned about protecting land & resources than anyone else. The whole "Noble Savage" propaganda is just that: A myth.
Also, I am WELL aware of lease-hold real estate, and who "discoveed" what and when. I was speaking in general terms of a MAJOR player "discovering" lands and taking control of them. Native Hawaiians were too weak to do jack about it. And just like American Indian tribes, the Aztecs of Mexico and the Incas of Peru, native Hawaians (and Polynesians on the many other islands of the Pacific) were enthusiastically doing "bad things" to each other unaided by any European presence whatsoever. They ALL persecuted their neighbors big-time before the arrival of the "white tribe" and then complained when the very same persecution was done to THEM. What hypochritical cry-babies...
And I was not trying to change "local customs" (and changing history is impossible, except you seem to be a PC revisionist). But if "local customs" means being racists, then that's BAD and speaks for itself.
I notice you and AlohaH have absolutely nothing negative to say about Hawaiians, that THEY just possibly may be at fault also. Instead, you're criticism is focused on mainlanders, i.e., other "outsider" American citizens, so you're just going to continue on in blissful denial. That's fine, continue wearing your blindfolds, but frankly, they're not very flattering.
As usual, when I post in a "debate" I NEVER try to change anyone's minds on issues -- that's up to them to do, or not -- I just try to explain my own position. Since we're not getting anywhere except geting mired in a pointless back-and-forth cycle, please excuse my exit as I'm done with this topic...
Last edited by cloudcroft; 10-16-2010 at 07:09 AM..
"...but you should realize the history and practices of its' people." And Hawaiians need to realize they're Americans, not foreigners.
Once again, misinterpretation of what I am saying (and what I know or don't know) persists. [sigh]
I didn't say Europeans did not do the same things, they sure did, since aparently it's hard-wired human nature shared by all. I just get tired of indigeneous people everywhere whining about "bad white people" doing "bad things" to THEM when it was perfectly acceptable for them to do the very same to each other all along BEFORE white people appeared (usually white, but there here WERE other races out "discovering" you know, such as the Arabs)...and most indigeneous peoples were no more caring/concerned about protecting land & resources than anyone else. The whole "Noble Savage" propaganda is just that: A myth.
Also, I am WELL aware of lease-hold real estate, and who "discoveed" what and when. I was speaking in general terms of a MAJOR player "discovering" lands and taking control of them. Native Hawaiians were too weak to do jack about it. And just like American Indian tribes, the Aztecs of Mexico and the Incas of Peru, native Hawaians (and Polynesians on the many other islands of the Pacific) were enthusiastically doing "bad things" to each other unaided by any European presence whatsoever. They ALL persecuted their neighbors big-time before the arrival of the "white tribe" and then complained when the very same persecution was done to THEM. What hypochritical cry-babies...
And I was not trying to change "local customs" (and changing history is impossible, except you seem to be a PC revisionist). But if "local customs" means being racists, then that's BAD and speaks for itself.
I notice you and AlohaH have absolutely nothing negative to say about Hawaiians, that THEY just possibly may be at fault also. Instead, you're criticism is focused on mainlanders, i.e., other "outsider" American citizens, so you're just going to continue on in blissful denial. That's fine, continue wearing your blindfolds, but frankly, they're not very flattering.
As usual, when I post in a "debate" I NEVER try to change anyone's minds on issues -- that's up to them to do, or not -- I just try to explain my own position. Since we're not getting anywhere except geting mired in a pointless back-and-forth cycle, please excuse my exit as I'm done with this topic...
I just love how you can infer that I have nothing negative to say about Hawaiians based on a couple of posts or topics UNSAID. I suppose you expect a manifesto with every post? Laughable.
I have merely compared the racism and localism in Hawaii to the same racism and localism found all over the Mainland. If that translates into anything else, that's your lack of comprehension or your personal exaggeration based on your clear bias, nothing more. Or you haven't been very many places.
Hispanics endure racism in border states. There are black/white schisms in most states. Southerners don't like "Yankees"...Floridians don't care for the Jews, Cubans hate Castro Cubans, yadda yadda...and don't expect every small town to treat you with open arms. Those are the facts of life on Mainland US. It isn't much different in the Islands. Racism. Localism. Happens everywhere. It sucks being on the other end of it, right? Now you might have an idea how some of the picked-on groups might feel, multiplied over generations.
Last edited by AlohaHuey; 10-17-2010 at 07:25 PM..
Then I and those Hawaiians who discriminate against me right up front based on my race will have a "difficult time" TOGETHER...
And again, I said nothing about not observing "common courtesy" (even though it's not common anymore) so don't put words in my mouth. As for ignorance, it's ignorant to judge an individual based on race...or if they are a transplant instead of a Kama`aina.
I was also referring to politics, the principles America was founded upon and in which all Americans should share, regardless of their state of residence. ALL Americans should have the same basic civil rights & protections regardless of their state. I see some of that glaringly absent in HI, and I guess it's been that way since statehood (51 years now). I don't know if it's because HI has just always been generally a liberal/Democrat state, or if it's because of the large Aisian population and how THEY maybe see things differently than the rest of the country. I have asked about that, but no one has any answers. Whatever, that shouldn't be, hence my reference to "joining the Union."
If HI wants to be that dfferent from the 49 other states, and finds mainlanders so terrible/distasteful (yet their money is certainly welcomed, isn't it), it should secede from the Union (yes, it's legal: The Civil War only [and illegally] "solved" the issue of secession by force, not by law in the courts). But until then it needs to remember it's a state, not a foreign country...or something special like an American Indian reservation (such as found here on the mainland) which are sovereign entities (yet only to some degree, not completely).
But that's more thread drift as well as another topic...
I was setting the record straight on expectations, since you seemed to misunderstand (deliberately or not) the intent of respecting locals. You seem to insist it means groveling or something. It's a rather foolish statement to keep making.
So, it's join the union as you dictate or secede? Your posts are those of a stereotypical thundering blowhard Mainlander that is the poster child for haole-beating.
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