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HonuMan is da man! That comment should be placed at the top of the Hawaii forum. Not a sticky, just those paragraphs on the Hawaii page above the list of threads.
I'm kind of surprised by people saying the people in Hawaii are hesitant to get emotionally invested in friends because they might move back to the mainland in a year or two. This makes no sense to me. People move all the time. Especially in the military. I've moved so many times I've lost count and I'm not even connected with the military in any way.
To deny yourself the opportunity to make a true friend because you are afraid they will move away is silly. Especially in this age of the internet, email, skype and free long distance. The majority of my friends live too far away to visit often. In fact, many of them I haven't actually seen in more than 10 years. They are still my friends and we still keep in touch almost daily. My best friend and I have been friends for more than 30 years but we've spent less than 10 in the same state and we've gone years without seeing each other. We've even lost track of each other a couple of times when we were younger. We've always found each other and we've never stopped being friends.
I think people in Hawaii are cutting off their own noses to spite their faces by having the attitude that it isn't worth my time to be friends with you until I can make sure you'll never leave me. Sounds kind of pathetic when you put it like that.
I don't mean to be snotty, but it really doesn't make sense.
Okay, Windride, imagine that you go to a party and meet twenty new people. Half of those twenty folks are newly here from the mainland. You have to explain everything to them which makes things tedious and of those ten mainland folks eight of them will be gone in a year. They don't know anything about the islands or anybody or even how folks are expected to act. They get a lot of leeway since they are mainlanders, but it is still a bit of an effort to chat with them and teach them island ways.
Now, the other half of the twenty imaginary people are born and raised here or have been here for a long time. They get all your centipede jokes right away. They can even tell you about small kid time how your neighbors were and once you get to know the local folks they will be here next year and the decade after as well. If you need anything they will be much more likely to either know where it is or who has it. So why would you want to spend a whole lot of time making friends with the mainland half of that group of people when the local half will be so much more beneficial? They are all strangers, but the local folks are still island folks so they are still part of "us" where as the new folks probably still don't get it. I don't think that it's local folks dislike mainland folks per sae, it's more like the local folks are more comfortable to be around. If you happen to find a true friend in the mainland half of that group of friends, good, but initially it's most likely you'll be more comfortable around the folks who know how things are on the island.
Now there are reasons to get to know mainland people. They can tell us about other places and one hopes they enjoy the island ways and there is some fun in explaining island customs sometimes. Other times it's just more comfortable to not have to deal with it all. There are also the troubles of not knowing what you need to tell the mainland folks so they will fit in. Did you know that if you invite mainland folks to a party they generally won't bring anything unless you specifically tell them to? If the person throwing our imaginary party where the imaginary twenty people showed up, since half of them are from the mainland there is going to be a huge lack of imaginary food unless someone explained about taking things to a party.
It's the same with employers. They don't want to keep retraining folks all the time so it's easier to hire folks that have been here for awhile.
That is a cop-out. You're saying it's too much trouble to bother with mainlanders because you have to explain to them how to live?? Why is it your job to teach them island ways? Unless they are asking for advice it seems arrogant to me that you think the purpose of a party is to instruct someone in proper island behavior. What do you mean by "how folks are expected to act." Are there special rules of ettiquite in Hawaii? I have always found that treating people the way I would like to be treated works well. Will that not suffice in Hawaii?
I don't know what kind of people you are inviting to your parties, but no one I know would dream of showing up at a party without bringing something. And if in doubt, we usually ask our host/hostess when the invitation is extended what they would like us to bring so they don't end up with 3 versions of the same dish or 10 appetizers and no desserts. Maybe the parts of the mainland I've lived in are the exception but since I've lived in Texas, California, Arizona, Colorado, Oregon and Washington I think maybe not. Trust me, the tradition of bringing food to a party is NOT just a Hawaii thing.
When I moved to Texas in the early 90's the Welcome Wagon came to my door with information about local businesses and my neighbors came over with pies and breads to introduce themselves and welcome me to the neighborhood. They didn't sit down and give me a lesson in local customs, they just made me feel welcome. I learned the rest on my own. If I'm invited to a party in Hawaii, all I would expect of the other guests is to be made welcome and polite conversation. I try not to drill anyone with a million questions but I will try to get to know them. My husband will ask you questions about you and your interests so he can get to know you. He is fascinated with people and loves to listen to anyone "talk story."
When I moved to Texas people didn't feel the need to educate me on how things were done in Texas and believe you me, life is a LOT different there than it is in Washington or California for that matter. I'm not sure why people in Hawaii think it is such a big deal to pontificate on how different life is in the islands. If I'm asking you where the best place to buy fresh fish is, that's one thing. But I'm certainly not going to your party expecting a lecture on life in the islands and how I am expected to behave.
I know this sounds more militant and combative than I intend it, so please give me the benefit of the doubt. I don't live there yet, and I know there will be some culture shock. I intend to try to find classes on Hawaiian history and language to help me assimilate and I will be leaning on my friends who are there to help me find my way. I also have Hawaiian relatives. I really am not going in with an arrogant attitude and I certainly don't want to change the way people live there. I am moving to Hawaii because I want to change the way I live. I am excited to experience a different place.
It sounds to me like you'd really be happier if you never met anyone who hadn't grown up next door and didn't know every experience you'd had. That sounds so amazingly boring to me. I'd go off my trolley if I only hung around people who had nothing new to impart, or no new experiences to share. I guess that's part of the reason I've moved around. I've enjoyed every single place I've lived and I've enjoyed getting to know the local customs and people. I'm hoping to do the same in Hawaii.
As you wish. I'm just trying to explain why it is occasionally difficult for mainland folks who have just moved over here. It might be a cop-out, it might make no sense, it's just what it is. If the mainland folks are aware of the attitude, then they may take it into consideration and not take it personal if they find it difficult to make many friends right away.
As far as the party thing goes, we already had a huge party of about fifty folks where about half the people there new mainland folks. About half of the mainland folks didn't bring anything even though it was a potluck so we aren't going to do that again.
I can see your point and will keep it in mind. I am kind of disappointed though, because I was really hoping to meet you once we get settled in. I have found your posts on this board to be very interesting and intelligent and really think I'd enjoy your company. Hopefully, you'd enjoy mine too. I appreciate the fact that we've been able to disagree without resorting to name calling or senseless anger. I enjoy an intelligent exchange of differing points of view.
As to the people at the potluck, shame on them. Some people are just like that and would be like that no matter where you put them. Please don't paint all mainlanders with that brush though. Lots and lots of us have better manners than that.
I live in Ohio, I am 73 years old so I have seen a bunch of parties. Normally when invited to a party we would bring a gift - a bottle of wine, something for the house or the person throwing the party, etc. (or maybe not - depending) but not food unless it was stated that it was a potluck. If it was a potluck we would ask what to bring. Usually it was a favorite dish that we were known for, or something to complement the rest of the meal.
Since we were semi-reformed hillbillys and not the "Upper Crust" maybe we were wrong, but that is the way it was done here. Or maybe I just don't hob-nob with the elite.
Also, if I have a good friend and he (or I) moved a state or two away, I can jump in a car and drive over for a visit. How far are you going to drive in Hawaii? Yes, you can hop a plane and fly, but it is much, much more expensive than driving. It's much harder to make a good friend and then not be able to see them, maybe forever so I can see why the locals are a bit hesitant to make good friends.
Folks on the islands just don't drive much, I'm not sure why although it might be because it would make everyone really aware how small the islands actually are. Going forty miles to Hilo is considered a huge trip and we just don't do it on a whim. Yesterday we all carpooled for a trip since we were going past Hilo and where we were going was - OMG!- SIXTY miles away! Oh, the horror! It was kinda jolly though since we all got to hang out and chat along the way. Driving that far by yourself would be totally humbug.
Oh, the roads here, at least on our island, are all pretty much two lane blacktop roads. Top posted speed is 55 miles per hour. It took an hour and a half to go the sixty miles and we didn't make any stops once we left.
WindRide, we actually aren't as grumpy as we seem. Come to think of it, our "not very friendly" attitude may not be noticeable by folks moving here from the mainland. After you've been here for awhile, notice how much nicer folks are to you than when you first arrived, but they are still gonna be nice to you when you first show up. They will just be nicer to you after you've been here awhile. We can still do lunch or something once you get over here.
HonuMan is da man! That comment should be placed at the top of the Hawaii forum. Not a sticky, just those paragraphs on the Hawaii page above the list of threads.
What do you mean by "how folks are expected to act." Are there special rules of ettiquite in Hawaii? I have always found that treating people the way I would like to be treated works well. Will that not suffice in Hawaii?
On the one hand, human beings are the same everywhere, and want to be treated with kindness and respect. On the other hand, there are many different cultures in this world, with different rules of etiquette. My parents are from New York, and I lived there for several years. One characteristic of New Yorkers (and I always preface these kinds of statements by saying that I'm generalizing) is bluntness. People say what they think and feel. I've known a lot of people who say that's how they like to be treated ("Just give it to me straight."), and they treat others the same way. That's fine when everyone understands and plays by the rules (i.e., an aspect of the culture). But if you like to be treated bluntly, and you do the same to others in Hawaii (or most Asian countries), you'll cause great offense and get the cold shoulder, because the rules of etiquette are indeed different there. When my wife moved to the mainland from Hawaii, she had to learn some different rules. Her enthusiastic praise of people and her inclination to hug everyone she met were taken with suspicion: "What does she want from me? Being that friendly and enthusiastic with strangers isn't normal." My parents later confessed that they thought she was, um, odd when they met her -- until they visited Hawaii and found that her behavior is the norm there.
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I don't know what kind of people you are inviting to your parties, but no one I know would dream of showing up at a party without bringing something. And if in doubt, we usually ask our host/hostess when the invitation is extended what they would like us to bring so they don't end up with 3 versions of the same dish or 10 appetizers and no desserts. Maybe the parts of the mainland I've lived in are the exception but since I've lived in Texas, California, Arizona, Colorado, Oregon and Washington I think maybe not. Trust me, the tradition of bringing food to a party is NOT just a Hawaii thing.
I've lived in New York, California, Georgia, and Oregon. Like MickeyE, my experience has been that, when you're invited to a party, you bring a bottle of wine or some flowers, unless the party is specifically stated to be pot luck. It evens out, because whoever throws the party provides the food, and everyone eventually throws a party. Another thing that I found different about Hawaii is that, when you're invited to a party, you offer to help clean up. In typical Asian fashion, the host will tell you, "No, that isn't necessary" two or three times, but you're expected to insist until the host relents. In my mainland experience, "No" means "No." I almost never help a host clean up after a party -- and I would never dream of asking guests to help clean up at a party I threw. Again, it evens out in both cultures, but the rules are different.
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To deny yourself the opportunity to make a true friend because you are afraid they will move away is silly. Especially in this age of the internet, email, skype and free long distance. The majority of my friends live too far away to visit often. In fact, many of them I haven't actually seen in more than 10 years. They are still my friends and we still keep in touch almost daily. My best friend and I have been friends for more than 30 years but we've spent less than 10 in the same state and we've gone years without seeing each other. We've even lost track of each other a couple of times when we were younger. We've always found each other and we've never stopped being friends.
I think people in Hawaii are cutting off their own noses to spite their faces by having the attitude that it isn't worth my time to be friends with you until I can make sure you'll never leave me. Sounds kind of pathetic when you put it like that.
I don't mean to be snotty, but it really doesn't make sense.
You're showing your own biases here: assuming that people who, in many cases, have lived all their lives in a remote, isolated, rural (in the case of the outer islands) location with a different culture should see the world in the same way and draw the same conclusions as someone who has lived and traveled in many places -- and calling it "silly" and "pathetic" that they don't. Hotzcatz is just trying to tell you the way it is. It sounds like your heart is in the right place (you're planning to take classes on Hawaiian history and language, which is more than many people who move there do), so instead of pre-judging an aspect of Hawaiians that you're hearing about and don't like, why don't you wait until you get there, try to understand why it is the way it is, and adapt to the reality? With time, patience, a genuine interest in and appreciation for Hawaiian culture, and learning the rules of etiquette, you'll eventually make friends, even though it might take longer than you'd like. But if you start getting angry and frustrated because things aren't moving at the pace you'd like, and maintaining that you have good intentions but the locals don't, and they're missing out on the great pleasure of getting to know you, then you're liable to be part of that high percentage of newcomers that Pele spits out.
Of course, that's easy for me to say. Hawaii presented me with some serious culture shock, but I have the advantage of a live-in tutor (i.e., my wife) who was able to explain the cultural nuances and rules of etiquette to me. And, to be completely honest, there are some aspects of Hawaiian and Asian culture that drove me crazy at first, and that I thought were kind of stupid -- namely, the high-context aspects, where "yes" really means "no," and "no" really means "yes," and you're expected to know when that is without asking, and it's rude for someone to ask you for what they want, and it's rude for you not to intuit what they want and offer it to them. It took me a long time to master that, but now it's second nature, and I don't judge it as better or worse than low-context cultural behaviors. It's just different.
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