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WindRide, we actually aren't as grumpy as we seem. Come to think of it, our "not very friendly" attitude may not be noticeable by folks moving here from the mainland. After you've been here for awhile, notice how much nicer folks are to you than when you first arrived, but they are still gonna be nice to you when you first show up. They will just be nicer to you after you've been here awhile. We can still do lunch or something once you get over here.
Hotcatz, I'd like that. One of the reasons we are moving to the BI instead of Oahu or Maui is that we've felt so much more welcome there. When we were on Oahu or Maui and said we'd like to move there, people immediately gave us 50 reasons why we shouldn't do it. When we mentioned it on the BI everyone told us HOW we could do it and even encouraged us to take the plunge. I can't imagine them being any nicer! We've never had a bad experience with a local on the BI, but I am sure it will happen sooner or later. There are cranky people everywhere. I've been known to be one myself.
Just can't wait to get there. Every day seems soooo long when you're this close.
For whatever the reason, just accept that this is the way it is. I think there are many reasons. This isn't just a Hawaii thing. There are many areas in the country where locals are slow and/or reluctant to get to know newcomers. I've lived a lot of places and it seemed to me that in some places the people already had their family and friends and didn't have the time and energy for more.
A few observations about what Windride brought up:
With Hawaii being a bit out of the way and insular, I see people in Hawaii as having and keeping much more geographically restricted circles of friends. There has always been movement on the mainland, people going to the next state when things didn't work out and people spreading out. The neighbor islands have always been more rural, with people staying put. Often they didn't have the money or the drive (educational, professional, etc) to move away. Oahu, with the large population, military, and bigger opportunities is a bit different, so I will focus on the neighbor islands in this comment.
Also, keeping in touch long distance is easier for the connected crowd. The teacher or friends in your hula class that you got along with so well certainly know how to send email or update on facebook, they just don't spend as much time on the computer as mainland people do. The established Hawaiian residents probably spend a bit more time outdoors or socializing, and mainlanders spend a bit more time online.
The "parties" that hotzcatz is talking about aren't so much the formal dinner parties (though those are possible) or formal potlucks, or even the organized affairs such as a baby luau or birthday party. It's more about running into someone when you're shopping and telling them to come over with their family. Or just meeting friends at the beach, staying later, and everybody shares the food they brought. I find that kind of socializing much more frequent on the neighbor islands than in my experience on the mainland. There's no cleaning the house before guests come over (well, not the way we used to on the mainland), it's more informal, and yes, people are expected to bring food and beverages to share.
Also, how many new people can one meet? The fact that you have a constant flow of newcomers means that the local residents likely already have acquaintances across half the mainland and a few other countries. It's not that they're not interested in you, it's just that they've been through it before. And it's also about personality: some people like to play the tour guide and tell you about their favorite places, others just want to talk about the Warriors or the Bows (UH teams), which newcomers won't know about.
"To deny yourself the opportunity to make a true friend because you are afraid they will move away is silly." Actually, while that is the common wisdom, I feel it's more like people feel their life is full or maybe a bit too busy already, and just don't want to make that extra effort to invite/talk to/befriend the newcomer. Don't get me wrong, a lot of people do and I'm certain the original poster will meet people if they go out, get involved, and are open to it. But I also think it's human nature for some people to be clannish and make excuses like that. Frankly, I wouldn't dwell on it.
I'm kind of surprised by people saying the people in Hawaii are hesitant to get emotionally invested in friends because they might move back to the mainland in a year or two.
Although I occasionally heard the "Oh, folks are reluctant to make friends since you might not stay" it usually wasn't from the locals and I never found that to be true to any degree. I did run into the few odd transplants who came across as being maybe a little superior to a new arrival since they'd been there longer. And if you don't find your neighbors welcoming there's always those pesky "tourists with frowns on their faces" (had to laugh at that one)...more bull. Most visitors (aka Tourists) are friendly, relaxed, interesting, and ready to have a good time so don't believe everything you read on this board. Some transplants tend to forget they too were once the dreaded "T" word. Anyway, I don't even think it's much different from other places that have people coming and going all the time. The welcome mat will not always be extended by those whose family, friends and relationships are already long established.
WindRide, I just read through the last page or so, and I have to say that your posts did come across as “militant and combatant”. Which is strange because from all of your previous posts, I had decided that I liked you! Anyway, I think that you are way over-thinking and over-analyzing this whole issue. The best advise that I can give is to just try to fit in. Observe what other people do in their socializing and learn the local culture from them. I found that whenever anyone comes over to my house, they bring food or drink (or both), so I do the same when I'm out visiting. It's just the way Hawaiians do things. If you get invited to a party, just ask what you should bring (even if they say “nothing”, you should still bring a little something).
We moved into a very rural subdivision on the south end of the Big Island. We had no trouble at all making friends with both the recent transplants as well as locals who have lived in the area all their lives. We got involved with many community activities and were friendly to everyone. Our acceptance has been wonderful. I'm sure you'll have the same experiences once you make the big move (10 days?).
To the OP, so far the best group I've run into has been the 2 book clubs I've joined. One through the local library and the 2nd through our HOA. It seems like everyone has been interesting, well read and welcoming. You might also try meet-up.com. I joined a hiking group, but what I really should have joined was a strolling group! But, the people are nice, even if the hike too fast! I've also signed up for a bi-weekly yoga class that looks promising. Good luck!
WindRide, I just read through the last page or so, and I have to say that your posts did come across as “militant and combatant”. Which is strange because from all of your previous posts, I had decided that I liked you! Anyway, I think that you are way over-thinking and over-analyzing this whole issue. The best advise that I can give is to just try to fit in. Observe what other people do in their socializing and learn the local culture from them. I found that whenever anyone comes over to my house, they bring food or drink (or both), so I do the same when I'm out visiting. It's just the way Hawaiians do things. If you get invited to a party, just ask what you should bring (even if they say “nothing”, you should still bring a little something).
We moved into a very rural subdivision on the south end of the Big Island. We had no trouble at all making friends with both the recent transplants as well as locals who have lived in the area all their lives. We got involved with many community activities and were friendly to everyone. Our acceptance has been wonderful. I'm sure you'll have the same experiences once you make the big move (10 days?).
Well I hope you still like me, I definitely like you.
On the one hand, human beings are the same everywhere, and want to be treated with kindness and respect. On the other hand, there are many different cultures in this world, with different rules of etiquette. My parents are from New York, and I lived there for several years. One characteristic of New Yorkers (and I always preface these kinds of statements by saying that I'm generalizing) is bluntness. People say what they think and feel. I've known a lot of people who say that's how they like to be treated ("Just give it to me straight."), and they treat others the same way. That's fine when everyone understands and plays by the rules (i.e., an aspect of the culture). But if you like to be treated bluntly, and you do the same to others in Hawaii (or most Asian countries), you'll cause great offense and get the cold shoulder, because the rules of etiquette are indeed different there. When my wife moved to the mainland from Hawaii, she had to learn some different rules. Her enthusiastic praise of people and her inclination to hug everyone she met were taken with suspicion: "What does she want from me? Being that friendly and enthusiastic with strangers isn't normal." My parents later confessed that they thought she was, um, odd when they met her -- until they visited Hawaii and found that her behavior is the norm there.
I've lived in New York, California, Georgia, and Oregon. Like MickeyE, my experience has been that, when you're invited to a party, you bring a bottle of wine or some flowers, unless the party is specifically stated to be pot luck. It evens out, because whoever throws the party provides the food, and everyone eventually throws a party. Another thing that I found different about Hawaii is that, when you're invited to a party, you offer to help clean up. In typical Asian fashion, the host will tell you, "No, that isn't necessary" two or three times, but you're expected to insist until the host relents. In my mainland experience, "No" means "No." I almost never help a host clean up after a party -- and I would never dream of asking guests to help clean up at a party I threw. Again, it evens out in both cultures, but the rules are different.
You're showing your own biases here: assuming that people who, in many cases, have lived all their lives in a remote, isolated, rural (in the case of the outer islands) location with a different culture should see the world in the same way and draw the same conclusions as someone who has lived and traveled in many places -- and calling it "silly" and "pathetic" that they don't. Hotzcatz is just trying to tell you the way it is. It sounds like your heart is in the right place (you're planning to take classes on Hawaiian history and language, which is more than many people who move there do), so instead of pre-judging an aspect of Hawaiians that you're hearing about and don't like, why don't you wait until you get there, try to understand why it is the way it is, and adapt to the reality? With time, patience, a genuine interest in and appreciation for Hawaiian culture, and learning the rules of etiquette, you'll eventually make friends, even though it might take longer than you'd like. But if you start getting angry and frustrated because things aren't moving at the pace you'd like, and maintaining that you have good intentions but the locals don't, and they're missing out on the great pleasure of getting to know you, then you're liable to be part of that high percentage of newcomers that Pele spits out.
Of course, that's easy for me to say. Hawaii presented me with some serious culture shock, but I have the advantage of a live-in tutor (i.e., my wife) who was able to explain the cultural nuances and rules of etiquette to me. And, to be completely honest, there are some aspects of Hawaiian and Asian culture that drove me crazy at first, and that I thought were kind of stupid -- namely, the high-context aspects, where "yes" really means "no," and "no" really means "yes," and you're expected to know when that is without asking, and it's rude for someone to ask you for what they want, and it's rude for you not to intuit what they want and offer it to them. It took me a long time to master that, but now it's second nature, and I don't judge it as better or worse than low-context cultural behaviors. It's just different.
Honuman, Thank you for your response. I keep wanting to go back and explain myself more clearly, but I really can't so I'm just going to let this go. I assure you I have no worries about the speed at which I'll make friends and I certainly don't expect everyone to love me on sight (or at all). I'm not moving to the Islands to change them, I'm moving there to experience them. Good and bad.
My step-dad is Hawaiian so the culture really isn't that foreign to me, he just never told me about the hesitance to make friends. He never met a stranger nor did anyone in his family that I've ever met. I guess the attitude on this board came as a surprise. Especially since most people I've met on the BI are transplants themselves. That is what made it so hard for me to fathom.
I apologize to anyone I offended with my posts. I really didn't intend to do so. I was simply trying to state another point of view. Apparently, my effort was clumsy.
I'm doing the same in about 3.5 months. Joined Big Island Self Sufficiency Yahoo group and I am confident when i move there, I will be meeting all the wonderful people on that forum. Also, I want to learn to kayak/canoe on the bay and there are groups that will help you with that. Join groups that have like interests as you two! Good luck
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We've never had a bad experience with a local on the BI, but I am sure it will happen sooner or later. There are cranky people everywhere. I've been known to be one myself.
) are friendly, relaxed, interesting, and ready to have a good time so don't believe everything you read on this board. Some transplants tend to forget they too were once the dreaded "T" word. Anyway, I don't even think it's much different from other places that have people coming and going all the time. The welcome mat will not always be extended by those whose family, friends and relationships are already long established.
