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This looks to me like a boatload of internet pipe dreams. And now this guy on the mainland is telling the Punatics how they should deal with their crime? WTF??????
"There must be a solution to this problem... Please help me find one.
Will live 24-hour internet monitoring work? "
Assuming you are choosing a place with internet and power (which from the property listings you have posted, neither is a guarantee) the 24-hour internet monitoring may be able to alert you if your stuff is getting violated, but it won't stop it from happening.
"House alarm?"
You mean like a siren? It might scare them off but you would really need a full professional response solution which would require power and a land line. But don't expect prompt police response to an unattended alarm. Lots of ongoing monthly costs with this option.
"Engaging local police department? Have nearby neighbors? Hire a care taker?"
Neighbors help, assuming you have a relationship with them. Of all your questions, a care taker is the most viable option. The thieves here target properties that look unattended.
Before we moved here, we used to own a square 3-acre parcel on pavement in Puna and our plan was to visit it once or twice a year, plant fruit trees and do other landscaping so that ~15 years or so in the future, it would be the land that we wanted. Our plan was to camp on the land during these visits and to facilitate that we had a steel shipping container placed there so that we could store our supplies relatively securely. I did a lot of research and bought a $150 mechanism that was the industry standard in preventing theft of shipping container contents. It wasn't just a "lock", it was a sizeable chunk of steel. I also bought a solar powered game camera that could send SMS messages so we would get picture updates from our property several times a day (we found that the motion detecting feature had too many false alarms and would send dozens, sometimes hundreds of images a day and drain the battery so we had it programmed to send images every few hours). It was great, if nothing else to get regular pics from our property in paradise. And to keep an eye on things.
After about 6 months circumstances changed and we had to alter our plans and moved to the Big Island full time. When we got here the real estate market was at the bottom and it was cheaper to buy a different 3 acre parcel with a house already on it than it was to build on our existing land so that is what we did. When we returned we removed the camera and most of what was in our container. About two years later the container was broken into. They stole a case of water and a $20 machete because the container was mostly empty. The most expensive loss was the $150 locking device. They used bolt cutters, a chain, and a 4WD vehicle to get it off the container.
In container storage yards they store shipping containers up against each other with the doors facing each other so there is no way to access the container door without using a forklift or crane to move the container first. The container yards are protected by an 8-foot tall chain-link fence topped with razor wire. The yards are well lit and they have roving security patrols. Stuff still gets stolen using ryobi or makita style battery-powered grinders to cut through the sides of the container anyway. These yards aren't in Puna, they are in major metropolitan areas with modern security measures and police forces. Puna doesn't have all that stuff. If you try to store unprotected stuff on a vacant lot, eventually something will happen. No matter what you do (short of a caretaker).
Having lived something similar to your dream, my advice is to wait. There is no reason to buy something in a rush. Most of the properties you posted look to be in Lava Zone 1 or 2. Don't rush to buy property in a zone that is statistically more likely to get erased compared to other areas. Don't rush to buy a property you're just going to own from afar, pay taxes and road fees for, and constantly worry if squatters are crapping on it. Do more research, visit several times, and learn from the Aloha of people who already live here and are offering advice, potentially helping you from making a huge mistake.
A lot of interesting information in this string about ripping and the crime stories. It seems that there are a lot more property crimes in the Puna district than in other areas in the northern Big Island areas, where the property costs are generally much higher. The repeated theme seems to be that you need to have people at or near your property at all times, or at least most of the time. It seems that there isn't the will to control the crime by the government and the residents. Or, there are too many criminals. Maybe three time loser laws are needed to lock up the repeat criminals for 10 or 20 years.
Since there isn't the will to control the crime, it seems that the only solution is to have a caretaker live on or near to the property. It's not clear to me from the discussion why a person or people on or near the property would discourage the criminals from violating the property. Is it the fact that the crime would be witnessed, resulting in a police response and a possible arrest? Or, perhaps the person on or near the property might be armed, resulting in the death or severe injury of the criminals? There seems to be something that reduces the chance of criminal activity if the property is occupied by a person or people. Perhaps there are other areas on the Big Island where the crime risk is significantly lower and the police response is better and faster.
There's a lot of contrasting objectives too. Such as ocean front property that has sharp rocks near the shoreline, which makes physical access to the ocean water unusable or impractical, verses driving to a different shoreline area that is physically accessible. Also, the close proximity of the ocean salt worsens the growing environment for trees and crops. Fish can be raised in tanks, which may be much more practical than building a man made pond, unless the man made pond is needed for the landscaping. Raising livestock might be far more costly than importing meat from elsewhere. The same with fish. How much meat and fish can be consumed by a small number of people? If you had dozens of people to feed, then maybe raising fish and livestock would make more sense, unless raising fish and livestock was done for a hobby interest.
We've also had thoughts of buying a property with some land, perhaps acreage several years before retirement. It takes several years to establish tropical fruit trees and other landscaping. But maybe the higher cost of setting up a single family home estate property, and protecting the property from criminals might not be worth the cost, verses living in a condo with much less security concerns when the property is unoccupied for several months at a time, when we are at another property or traveling.
"It takes several years to establish tropical fruit trees and other landscaping."
We quickly learned that a caretaker is required for this as well. The pigs will destroy anything you plant. Established trees do okay, but anything you plant will not until it gets to size.
Crime is "different" in Puna partly because of the culture. There are generations of folks, as well as transplants, who live subsistence lifestyles. They harvest what they can and the rest is supplemented by government programs. If the water pump dies and they don't have the money for a new one, it's "harvested" from an unattended property. It's not that there is an ingrained criminal mindset, it's rationalized that if nobody is currently living there, nobody needs the pump. That is the element that steals pumps and kitchen cabinets. But, Puna also has the criminal elements most people are accustomed to where the criminals are looking to steal anything that can be quickly pawned or traded for drugs. The reason why you read about how unusual the crime is in Puna is not necessarily because there is MORE crime, it's because somebody spending a half day removing and stealing all your kitchen cabinets but leaving your flat screen TV behind is unusual.
It is ridiculous to think that one needs to live in fear of getting robbed in Puna, that simply isn't the case. But you need to take precautions so they'll move onto the next water pump or whatever can be pawned for drugs. Make friends with the neighbors, park your cars where they can't be seen from the road so nobody can ever tell if you are home or not, fence off enough property so driving up to your house isn't an option (that is why everybody has a driveway gate), get a dog, choose one of the better neighborhoods, get solar powered motion lights, install a cheap surveillance camera system. I've lived and spent time in enough inner cities to know that Puna is a lot safer than these stories you read here might make you believe.
Puna doesn't have any gated communities, that is part of it's charm. But it's not for everybody.
You and I have chosen almost the identical path to try to realize the dream. I think this is also the path of many other people wanting a life in paradise, because it is logical and most intuitive. I hope you continue to share your stories.
I constant think about the timing question too. With 10-15 more years to go until retirement, should I do this now? What are the pros and cons? Is it a better alternative to rent a beach house on my visits, and buy when I fully retire?
On the cons side there are many that have been pointed out. In addition to the management and security issue, if I buy in SF bay area instead, the capital appreciation in 10-15 years will likely far out-pace buying raw land in Puna. Money trumps many things. Can lava overflow, create new land, and make my oceanfront lot no longer oceanfront? I had sought advice on that in another thread.
But then I ask myself, what is 10+ years of pride of ownership worth? Owning an oceanfront acreage and setting up a self-sufficient is my life-long dream, and is my final major project in life. Even if I just buy the raw land now, only look at it from the web every day, and only walk on it perhaps 3 times a year, in a way I will feel I have already grasped that dream. How much is that joy and sense of accomplishment worth? Can this satisfaction trump bigger financial gain?
I think it can. For me anyway. On one hand, the satisfaction is strong enough; on the other hand, I will minimize the investment by looking at only the smallest of the oceanfront acreages. This way, the risk is capped relatively small, and yet I am able to take this first step.
The least expensive oceanfront empty lots currently on the market are spaghetti lots in the 1.5 acre range, asking about 150K. I plan to be there in February to look at them, then pick one to buy.
Leading up to that point I continue to do my research. Your stories on any aspects of your move to Big Island -- pricing of property, management, security, weather, neighbor matters, government matters, etc -- are all welcomed and appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terracore
"Before we moved here, we used to own a square 3-acre parcel on pavement in Puna and our plan was to visit it once or twice a year, plant fruit trees and do other landscaping so that ~15 years or so in the future, it would be the land that we wanted. Our plan was to camp on the land during these visits and to facilitate that we had a steel shipping container placed there so that we could store our supplies relatively securely. I did a lot of research and bought a $150 mechanism that was the industry standard in preventing theft of shipping container contents. It wasn't just a "lock", it was a sizeable chunk of steel. I also bought a solar powered game camera that could send SMS messages so we would get picture updates from our property several times a day (we found that the motion detecting feature had too many false alarms and would send dozens, sometimes hundreds of images a day and drain the battery so we had it programmed to send images every few hours). It was great, if nothing else to get regular pics from our property in paradise. And to keep an eye on things.
After about 6 months circumstances changed and we had to alter our plans and moved to the Big Island full time. When we got here the real estate market was at the bottom and it was cheaper to buy a different 3 acre parcel with a house already on it than it was to build on our existing land so that is what we did. When we returned we removed the camera and most of what was in our container. About two years later the container was broken into. They stole a case of water and a $20 machete because the container was mostly empty. The most expensive loss was the $150 locking device. They used bolt cutters, a chain, and a 4WD vehicle to get it off the container.
In container storage yards they store shipping containers up against each other with the doors facing each other so there is no way to access the container door without using a forklift or crane to move the container first. The container yards are protected by an 8-foot tall chain-link fence topped with razor wire. The yards are well lit and they have roving security patrols. Stuff still gets stolen using ryobi or makita style battery-powered grinders to cut through the sides of the container anyway. These yards aren't in Puna, they are in major metropolitan areas with modern security measures and police forces. Puna doesn't have all that stuff. If you try to store unprotected stuff on a vacant lot, eventually something will happen. No matter what you do (short of a caretaker).
Having lived something similar to your dream, my advice is to wait. There is no reason to buy something in a rush. Most of the properties you posted look to be in Lava Zone 1 or 2. Don't rush to buy property in a zone that is statistically more likely to get erased compared to other areas. Don't rush to buy a property you're just going to own from afar, pay taxes and road fees for, and constantly worry if squatters are crapping on it. Do more research, visit several times, and learn from the Aloha of people who already live here and are offering advice, potentially helping you from making a huge mistake.
You're forgetting the Beachlots. I'm living there right now. It still has crime, theft of gasoline, tools, etc. and last March my next door neighbor murdered another neighbor.
Whether it's the inner city or rural Puna, the higher the population density, the more crime is committed. Neighborhoods with the smaller lots have more problems. A lot of the drug-fueled thefts are done close to wherever the criminal lives. These are people that steal and commit acts of violence against their own family members living in the same house. If there is nothing to take from "home", they will move onto the neighbor's homes.
Contrasting and conflicting objectives, definitely!! I wanted my wife to be stunning and rich too; but then I don't look like George Clooney.
So I have to set different priorities for different goals. The goal of "oceanfront" for me is #1; this part for me is uncompromisable.
With that, since I don't have the $3m to buy white sand beach-front acreages, Puna's rocky shore will have to do. Luckily I am used to it already. Here in California, we have very rocky shores as well, just not as jagged as lava rock. Rocky shore just means one has to carefully climb into water, as opposed to running free on flat sand. You can similarly enjoy the beautiful ocean. I definitely will take advantage of the sandy beaches near by, but having the ocean right behind my backyard, any ocean, is great no matter what.
My pond will be for multiple purposes. It is definitely part of landscaping. This will also offer recreation such as boating and fishing. And finally, I hope it offer maintenance-free large mouth bass; so this needs to be as natural as possible.
I know farming is hard work; I am not intending to do farming for income. I want to set up my own homestead because I like the lifestyle. It is work indeed, but it is *enjoyable* work. If you think along those lines, many of my plan will make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davephan
There's a lot of contrasting objectives too. Such as ocean front property that has sharp rocks near the shoreline, which makes physical access to the ocean water unusable or impractical, verses driving to a different shoreline area that is physically accessible. Also, the close proximity of the ocean salt worsens the growing environment for trees and crops. Fish can be raised in tanks, which may be much more practical than building a man made pond, unless the man made pond is needed for the landscaping. Raising livestock might be far more costly than importing meat from elsewhere. The same with fish. How much meat and fish can be consumed by a small number of people? If you had dozens of people to feed, then maybe raising fish and livestock would make more sense, unless raising fish and livestock was done for a hobby interest.
We've also had thoughts of buying a property with some land, perhaps acreage several years before retirement. It takes several years to establish tropical fruit trees and other landscaping. But maybe the higher cost of setting up a single family home estate property, and protecting the property from criminals might not be worth the cost, verses living in a condo with much less security concerns when the property is unoccupied for several months at a time, when we are at another property or traveling.
Hi guys, I thought I come back here to update my effort to acquire an oceanfront property in Hawaii, and give my story a temporary conclusion.
I just acquired an oceanfront property in Mendocino, CA!
A very suitable property came up last month; suitable in terms of location, size of land, size of house, oceanfront feature, price, etc. This is almost perfection for me.
California's coast is different than Hawaii's, in that flat lands often sits on top of a 100' bluff and hiking down a trail is necessary to access the beach. Water is is a constant 50 degrees year round, so we suits are needed to get into water. There are more big fat food fish than beautiful-looking tropical fish. But the beauty of the ocean is equally stunning.
So I put in an offer right away (Nov 20), won the bidding 10 days later, and now I'm awaiting to close escrow.
I still want a property in Big Island Hawaii. But now I will be looking for something a bit different, because this will be purely for enjoying the ocean as opposed to building a homestead. Thus, a small house on a small lot would be just fine as a home base to access public beaches or shores. Timing-wise I will push this back a bit as I will have my hands full dealing with the Mendocino purchase.
Here is what the area looks like:
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